Playing JJ vs. Queen & flush draws... large pot. What to do?

[CoachBill]

I was playing a $1/$2 live game recently 9-handed that was very loose-passive (no surprise). I had Jdiamond-Jclub one off the button. Three players limp, I raise, and the button, Big Blind, and all 3 limpers call (12 small bets).

The flop is Qclub, 8diamond, 2club. The player to my right has been playing any junk hand to the river if he hits any piece of the flop. He has been getting very lucky and making two pair several times. Check, check, and he bets. I call planning to raise the turn if a safe card comes. The Button calls, Big Blind folds, and one of the players that checked now calls (16 small bets and it is 4-handed).

The turn is the 6club. It is checked to me and I check also. The Button bets, a fold, and it is called by the player to my right (10 large bets). I don't have any read on the Button at this point... I have an underpair and a backdoor flush that may or may not be any good...

Is this an easy fold? Should I have folded earlier? Or, is a raise on the flop or bet on turn the best way to improve my chances to win? Is a call now out of the question?

Any advice on this would be great... thanks so much!

[BigBadBabar]

raise the flop, it's very important to get some guys out of there now and hopefully get heads up or 3way.

[BigBadBabar]

and it's very likely we still have the best hand as well obviously. our raise to drive people out is because we dont want random hands with an ace or a king in them staying around.

[CoachBill]

Thanks a lot for the feedback Babar.

I do understand the need and importance of getting many hands that beat me to fold... Is this my primary goal on a flop like this? I think this situation occurs a lot
(an under-pair on a flush draw board that has 4-5 players in it).

I do recall reading in SSHE about passing on edge now to get a better edge later. I thought this might apply in this situation, that if I raised, anyone on a flush draw would still call. So, I figured that by waiting and raising on the turn (if a safe card came) I would force them to call 2 big bets on the turn (which would be unprofitable for them).

Am I completely mixed up on my thinking here?

In your opinion, since I missed the flop raise, should I now fold for the one bet (10 to 1). I may be way behind. Maybe not on this table...

Thanks.

[Niediam]

The flush draws will still be correct to call even if you charge them a double bet on the turn.

Waiting for a safe card on the turn to raise would probably be fine if you knew for a fact that you could get that raise in but probably isn't the situation here unless villian is the type that almost always continues to bet.

Let's assume that villian has A8 here (if he has a Q it doesn't really matter when/if we raise because we are cooked). If you and a couple other's call the flop bet then villian might assume he is beat and not bet the turn and you lose your chance to try and knock people out. On the flop you know you get that opportunity because villian has bet.

If the pot was a little bit bigger you would want to wait
until the turn because everybody would have odds to call even a double bet on the flop. If you would be charing people about 16:2 if you raised is when you want to considering waiting.

[goofball]

You definitely can't fold on the turn. If you raise the flop though people will fold 5 out hands and coldcall with flush draws. Both of these are good for you as it helps you play your hand and gives you a better chance to win this growing pot. Personally, I'd have bet the turn.