Is a Zen Koan "Accurate"?

[PairTheBoard]

Is a Zen Koan "Accurate"? Or if we can't determine whether it is "Accurate" can we decide whether it is "likely to be true"?

From Wikipedia: "Koans originate in the sayings and doings of sages and legendary figures, usually those authorized to teach in a lineage that regards Bodhidharma (c. 5th-6th century) as its ancestor. Koans are said to reflect the enlightened or awakened state of such persons, and sometimes said to confound the habit of discursive thought or shock the mind into awareness."

The "awareness" the Koan is to help bring about is an awareness of the "True Nature of Creation".

Here's a link to 101 Zen Koans (http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html)

Also this Link on Zen Buddhism (http://www.terebess.hu/english/zen.html)

From the Zen Buddhism link:
=====================
"The achieving of enlightenment in Zen is not at all a rational or methodical process. It is completely non-rational, unexplainable, and intuitive."

"the Zen teaching of koans ... are designed
to put the student in a state where he can abandon logic and make the leap upward into enlightenment. In Japanese this state of enlightenment is called satori."

"In satori we are able to look beyond our immediate world into the universe of original, eternal, Absolute Being often called the Great Emptiness - which was before our world was formed, and will be after it disappears. In
this condition we lose our sense of Self, and know ourselves to be part of the great Oneness of all. Knowing ourselves to be part of Absolute Being, our ego and our problems of ego - sin, pain, poverty, fear - all dissolve.
This is salvation in Zen terms."
================

The statement in bold is the kind of description we are used to getting in our Theologies and what we commonly argue about. Is it accurate? How likely is it to be true? Does it have any objective evidence? If there are any Zen Masters here, feel free to correct me. But I think a Zen Master would say that the description in Bold does not actually describe the True Nature. Rather it amounts to a kind of weak Koan, that can only point to, or stimulate, or aid the reader in realizing the enlightenment that is required to understand the True Nature of Absolute Being.

So let's look at some other Zen Koans.

On Heaven and Hell
==================
A FAMOUS soldier came to the master Hakuin and asked: "Master, tell me: is there really a heaven and a hell?"

"Who are you?" asked Hakuin.

"I am a soldier of the great Emperor's personal guard."

"Nonsense!" said Hakuin. "What kind of emperor would have you around him? To me you look like a beggar!" At this, the soldier started to rattle his big sword in anger. "Oho!" said Hakuin. "So you have a sword! I'll wager it's much too dull to cut my head off!"

At this the soldier could not hold himself back. He drew his sword
and threatened the master, who said: "Now you know half the
answer! You are opening the gates of hell!"

The soldier drew back, sheathed his sword, and bowed. "Now you know the other half," said the master. "You have opened the gates of heaven."
====================



On a Teaching of Jesus
======================
A university student while visiting Gasan asked him: "Have you ever read the Christian Bible?"

"No, read it to me," said Gasan.

The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for rainment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."

Gasan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."

The student continued reading: "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."

Gasan remarked: "That is excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood."
======================


From Random Koans (http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan.pl)
=================
"One should not discuss a dream
In front of a simpleton.
Why has Bodhidharma no beard?
What an absurd question!"

"Three pounds of flax in front of your nose,
Close enough, and mind is still closer.
Whoever talks about affirmation and negation
Lives in the right and wrong region"

-----------
Daibai asked Baso: `What is Buddha?'
Baso said: `This mind is Buddha.'

Mumon's Comment: If anyone wholly understands this, he is wearing Buddha's clothing, he is eating Buddha's food, he is speaking Buddha's words, he is behaving as Buddha, he is Buddha.

This anecdote, however, has given many pupil the sickness of formality. If one truly understands, he will wash out his mouth for three days after saying the word Buddha, and he will close his ears and flee after hearing `This mind is Buddha.'


Under blue sky, in bright sunlight,
One need not search around.
Asking what Buddha is
Is like hiding loot in one's pocket and declaring oneself innocent.
-----------------

"It is too clear and so it is hard to see.
A dunce once searched for fire with a lighted lantern.
Had he known what fire was,
He could have cooked his rice much sooner."
===================================


So does it make sense to talk about whether a Koan is accurate or how likely is it to be True? I don't think so. Koans are not like scientific facts. And Satori cannot be explained or described, only experienced. I think the phenomenon of Faith is similiar. It has to be experienced. And the statements of Theologies, like Koans, can only point to the Truth rather than describe it. For example, "God is Love". The Truth must be experienced in Faith. Unfortunately, not all Believers are Buddhas.

PairTheBoard

[bunny]

I think the difference is they are not of the same form as statements of fact. There are theological claims (like God caused the universe to exist) which are statements of fact. Then stories like the ones you quote above, which make no claims as to how the world is.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the difference is they are not of the same form as statements of fact. There are theological claims (like God caused the universe to exist) which are statements of fact. Then stories like the ones you quote above, which make no claims as to how the world is.

[/ QUOTE ]

"In satori we are able to look beyond our immediate world into the universe of original, eternal, Absolute Being often called the Great Emptiness - which was before our world was formed, and will be after it disappears. In
this condition we lose our sense of Self, and know ourselves to be part of the great Oneness of all. Knowing ourselves to be part of Absolute Being, our ego and our problems of ego - sin, pain, poverty, fear - all dissolve.
This is salvation in Zen terms."
================

The statement in bold is the kind of description we are used to getting in our Theologies and what we commonly argue about. Is it accurate? How likely is it to be true? Does it have any objective evidence? If there are any Zen Masters here, feel free to correct me. But I think a Zen Master would say that the description in Bold does not actually describe the True Nature. Rather it amounts to a kind of weak Koan, that can only point to, or stimulate, or aid the reader in realizing the enlightenment that is required to understand the True Nature of Absolute Being.


PairTheBoard

[TimWillTell]

Forget the koan; it's the response that matters.

If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha!

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
Forget the koan; it's the response that matters.

If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm talkin about!

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
Forget the koan; it's the response that matters.

If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha!

[/ QUOTE ]

Student: "Master, I've found God."
Master: "You've found a box. Throw it away."
Student: "But then I will be without a God."
Master: "No. You will be without the box."

PairTheBoard

[J. Stew]

mu

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
mu

[/ QUOTE ]

Student: "Master, My logic tells me no religion is likely to be true because there are so many versions of so many of them. How am I to know which road to take?"
Master: "Turn off"

PairTheBoard

[TimWillTell]

Student: "Master, I've found God."
Master: "You've found a box. Throw it away."
Student: "But then I will be without a God."
Master: "No. You will be without the box."

Now the master gives the student a box, saying:"This is the symbol of God."
The student has paid good attention to the master, so he throws away the box.
Master shouts furious:"How dare you insult God by throwing away the box!?"
Student mumbles:"But but, I thought..."
The master hits the student in the face karate-style and the student goes down.
Both positions, master and student are reinforced and all is well in Buddha land.
The master whispers to a close friend:"Pfuui, that was a close call. If the student would have laughed at me, I would had to make a bow, because I couldn't think of anything else. Imaging the shame, bowing to a student for all to see. Fortunately I made him insecure with my shouting and he flunked big-time, haha!"

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Student: "Master, I've found God."
Master: "You've found a box. Throw it away."
Student: "But then I will be without a God."
Master: "No. You will be without the box."

Now the master gives the student a box, saying:"This is the symbol of God."
The student has paid good attention to the master, so he throws away the box.
Master shouts furious:"How dare you insult God by throwing away the box!?"
Student mumbles:"But but, I thought..."
The master hits the student in the face karate-style and the student goes down.
Both positions, master and student are reinforced and all is well in Buddha land.
The master whispers to a close friend:"Pfuui, that was a close call. If the student would have laughed at me, I would had to make a bow, because I couldn't think of anything else. Imaging the shame, bowing to a student for all to see. Fortunately I made him insecure with my shouting and he flunked big-time, haha!"

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif Honestly, thats about how I read most koans. Maybe I'm just dense.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
Student: "Master, I've found God."
Master: "You've found a box. Throw it away."
Student: "But then I will be without a God."
Master: "No. You will be without the box."

Now the master gives the student a box, saying:"This is the symbol of God."
The student has paid good attention to the master, so he throws away the box.
Master shouts furious:"How dare you insult God by throwing away the box!?"
Student mumbles:"But but, I thought..."
The master hits the student in the face karate-style and the student goes down.
Both positions, master and student are reinforced and all is well in Buddha land.
The master whispers to a close friend:"Pfuui, that was a close call. If the student would have laughed at me, I would had to make a bow, because I couldn't think of anything else. Imaging the shame, bowing to a student for all to see. Fortunately I made him insecure with my shouting and he flunked big-time, haha!"

[/ QUOTE ]

In tears the Student retrieves the box and takes it with him. He wanders the Earth with the box until one day he finds a Sage living in a Cave. He gives the box to the Sage saying, "Master, this is the symbol of God". The Sage takes the box and sets it down in front of him. With his eyes focused on the box he begins to meditate. He remains in that position, meditating on the box for 40 days and 40 nights. Finally he rises from his meditation and calls for the Student. The Sage hands the box back to the Student saying, "Thank you for that lovely gift".

As the Student walks down the path from the cave he suddenly bursts into laughter. The Sage smiles.

PairTheBoard

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the difference is they are not of the same form as statements of fact. There are theological claims (like God caused the universe to exist) which are statements of fact. Then stories like the ones you quote above, which make no claims as to how the world is.

[/ QUOTE ]

"In satori we are able to look beyond our immediate world into the universe of original, eternal, Absolute Being often called the Great Emptiness - which was before our world was formed, and will be after it disappears. In
this condition we lose our sense of Self, and know ourselves to be part of the great Oneness of all. Knowing ourselves to be part of Absolute Being, our ego and our problems of ego - sin, pain, poverty, fear - all dissolve.
This is salvation in Zen terms."
================

The statement in bold is the kind of description we are used to getting in our Theologies and what we commonly argue about. Is it accurate? How likely is it to be true? Does it have any objective evidence? If there are any Zen Masters here, feel free to correct me. But I think a Zen Master would say that the description in Bold does not actually describe the True Nature. Rather it amounts to a kind of weak Koan, that can only point to, or stimulate, or aid the reader in realizing the enlightenment that is required to understand the True Nature of Absolute Being.


PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your question. The description above isn't a koan, it's just an attempt at describing satori. It may be fair to say the description can't do the phenomenon justice, but koans are not just any incomplete/confusing/untrue statement. They are stories or questions that have (supposedly /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) stood the test of time in helping students to reach enlightenment.

I should also add that, like most writing, something may well be lost in the translation.

Anyway...I still don't understand your question /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[TimWillTell]

But a second student did overhear the whispering of the master and the next day this student goes to the master and asks:"Master, teach me about the symbol of god.
The master looks for the box but cannot find it. He looks out the window to see if it was left outside. Even though the window was dirty, he could still see that there was no box.
So the master shouts in dis-pair: "Oh no, where is the symbol of God?"
Second student explains that first student took it with him an left the monastery.
The master shouts:"That no good son of a bitch took the symbol of God. Go after him and get it back, don't you dear come back without it!"
So second student goes on his quest. Apparently he had to wander the Earth, but that did not encourage him and finally he found first student who was laughing out loud with the box in his hands.
Second student:"I'm so glad I found you, our master needs the symbol of God so we have to hurry back to the monastery."
First student starts to laugh even louder.
Second student:"You are hopeless, give me that box!" And he grabs the box out of first student's hands and runs with it back to the monastery as the first student's laughter fades away.
Out of breath and stumbling from exhaustion he falls down before the master and says:"Look master I've retrieved the symbol of God!"
Master replies:"What took you so long, it must be well over 40 days? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Well never-mind, whats important is that you are back with the box right in time. Open it!"
In great anticipation the student opens the box that is the symbol of God, but sees nothing but cleaning cloths in there.
Master:"Good the cloths are still there. Look at the window how dirty it is. It needs to be cleaned right away! Clean it!" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PairTheBoard]

"Before enlightenment comes chopping wood and carrying water, after enlightenment comes chopping wood and carrying water."

PairTheBoard

[J. Stew]

who turns off you, you? and you is. . . who?

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
mu

[/ QUOTE ]

Student: "Master, My logic tells me no religion is likely to be true because there are so many versions of so many of them. How am I to know which road to take?"
Master: "Turn off"

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
who turns off you, you? and you is. . . who?

[/ QUOTE ]

mu


PairTheBoard

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
mu

[/ QUOTE ]

Student: "Master, My logic tells me no religion is likely to be true because there are so many versions of so many of them. How am I to know which road to take?"
Master: "Turn off"

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
who turns off you, you? and you is. . . who?

[/ QUOTE ]

mu


PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

hI . . Yaahh

[TimWillTell]

The student cleans the window and he is pissed that he has to do this extra chore. But he remembers what he had overheard his master whispering to a friend. If the other student (first student) would have laughed, the master would have bowed to the student. That would be awesome!
So the next day the student goes to the master and asks:"Master, teach me about the symbol of God."
The master looks at the student, thinks for a moment and says:"You have cleaned the window very nicely so I will teach you."
Next to the master stands a very old chair; the master grabs the chair and gives it to the student saying:"This is the symbol of God."
The student is all exited because of the prospect of the master bowing to him, so he takes the chair and throws it away.
But it is a very old chair and when it hits the floor it breaks.
The master becomes furious and shouts:"How dare you break that chair that is the symbol of God?"
The students immediately realizes that this situation is not going as expected and that it would be like suicide if he was to laugh at this point, so he mumbles an apology:"I'm sorry, I thought...
"Sorry does not pay the rent," the master replies, "you have to fix that chair, restore it as if it were brand new again and safe to sit on. Be sure to have it ready next week!"
"Yes master, thank you master," says the student embarrassed because of his failure, and he takes the chair and leaves.
Then a friend of the master arrives.
"Greetings," says the master, "you are right in time for thee."
As they are enjoying their thee, the friend asks:"That old chair of my mother that I brought yesterday, she likes it so much, but as you know it is not save to sit on anymore. You thought you might know somebody that could fix it..."
The master smiles:"Yes it will be ready next week, as good as new!" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

"That is good news," says the friend,"but why are you smiling?"
"Was I? I didn't know, I was thinking of the past, the times that I was a student and my master was giving me all these annoying chores to do," says the master.
"But those thoughts used to make you angry, so how can you be smiling now?" asks the friend.
The master looks up in surprise and says:"I was looking at myself through the eyes of my old master!"

[latefordinner]

One evening as the monk Won Hyo was crossing the desert, he stopped at a small patch of green, where there were a few trees and some water, and went to sleep. Toward midnight he awoke, thirsty - it was pitch-dark. He groped along on all fours, searching for water. At last his hand touched a cup on the ground. He picked it up and drank. Ah, how delicious! Then he bowed deeply, in gratitude, to Buddha for the gift of water. The next morning, Won Hyo woke up and saw beside him what he had taken for a cup (during the night). It was a shattered skull, blood-caked and with shreds of flesh still stuck to the cheek-bones. Strange insects crawled or floated on the surface of the filthy rainwater inside it. Won Hyo looked at the skull and felt a great wave of nausea. He opened his mouth. As soon as the vomit poured out, his mind opened and he understood.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the difference is they are not of the same form as statements of fact. There are theological claims (like God caused the universe to exist) which are statements of fact. Then stories like the ones you quote above, which make no claims as to how the world is.

[/ QUOTE ]

"In satori we are able to look beyond our immediate world into the universe of original, eternal, Absolute Being often called the Great Emptiness - which was before our world was formed, and will be after it disappears. In
this condition we lose our sense of Self, and know ourselves to be part of the great Oneness of all. Knowing ourselves to be part of Absolute Being, our ego and our problems of ego - sin, pain, poverty, fear - all dissolve.
This is salvation in Zen terms."
================

The statement in bold is the kind of description we are used to getting in our Theologies and what we commonly argue about. Is it accurate? How likely is it to be true? Does it have any objective evidence? If there are any Zen Masters here, feel free to correct me. But I think a Zen Master would say that the description in Bold does not actually describe the True Nature. Rather it amounts to a kind of weak Koan, that can only point to, or stimulate, or aid the reader in realizing the enlightenment that is required to understand the True Nature of Absolute Being.


PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your question. The description above isn't a koan, it's just an attempt at describing satori. It may be fair to say the description can't do the phenomenon justice, but koans are not just any incomplete/confusing/untrue statement. They are stories or questions that have (supposedly /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) stood the test of time in helping students to reach enlightenment.

I should also add that, like most writing, something may well be lost in the translation.

Anyway...I still don't understand your question /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of what I'm getting at is that the distinction between such a Description and a Koan is not as clear as you think. There's an online AI called Alice you can Chat with Here. (http://www.alicebot.org/) You should try it. I asked her if she believed in God. She said she did. I then asked her who or what God was. She said, "God is the Master of the Universe". Then I asked her what that meant. She didn't understand the question. I rephrased it several times and finally found a form she understood. Her response to that question was, "God is the Master of the Universe". I went through this several more times with the same result. Finally she said she wanted to talk about something else.

Now at first it looks like her statement, "God is the Master of the Universe" is a description. We should be able to discuss its accuracy. Is it true or false? Is it likely to be true? Is it meaningless? Is it nonsense? But the fact is we are unable to do any of these things with Alice because we don't really know what she means by it precisely. Alice's consistent refusal to say anything other than this regarding quesions of God is a little like the Zen Master who answers every question about the Buddha with the one word Koan, "mu". In both cases, the response either stimulates the listener into some kind of subjective realization or it doesn't.

My contention is that Theological language in general is more akin to Koans than to Scientific Models of Reality (Descriptions). And that the insistence on treating them like Scientific Models of Reality is just an exercise in futility.

Look at some examples:

"God is Love"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it"

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side has made him known"

"The first miracle is that the wine turns into the Blood of Christ. The second miracle is that the Blood of Christ smells and tastes like wine."

If you view these statements like you do Scientific Models of Reality it's easy for you to laugh at them. If you see them as being more akin to Koans then you might be as puzzled as you are with Koans, but at least I think your basis for engagement with them becomes much closer to what it should be.

PairTheBoard

[MaxWeiss]

Sam Harris gets a lot of flack for promoting some Eastern philosophies that have similar effects, without the mumbo jumbo reasoning. Sam is able to separate his "self" and gain a shifted perspective and on and on. That's what they are doing --it's just a meditation mind thing, nothing special about it.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
"Greetings," says the master, "you are right in time for thee."
As they are enjoying their thee, the friend asks:"That old chair of my mother that I brought yesterday, she likes it so much, but as you know it is not save to sit on anymore. You thought you might know somebody that could fix it..."
The master smiles:"Yes it will be ready next week, as good as new!"

"That is good news," says the friend,"but why are you smiling?"
"Was I? I didn't know, I was thinking of the past, the times that I was a student and my master was giving me all these annoying chores to do," says the master.
"But those thoughts used to make you angry, so how can you be smiling now?" asks the friend.
The master looks up in surprise and says:"I was looking at myself through the eyes of my old master!"


[/ QUOTE ]

As time passed, many students at the Monastery became disheartened at their ill treatment by their Master. No one was realizing enlightenment. They saw that their Master was not living according to the Eight-Fold path of the Buddha. Many left the Monastery. Some became discouraged and even wrote books about the impossibility of enlightenment.

Others heard the story of the student who had realized enlightenment after visiting the Sage living in the Cave. They sought out the Sage and found him chopping wood and carrying water outside the cave. The sage was happy to see each one of them, treating them like old friends and guests. The sage continued to tend his garden, chop wood, and carry water. He freely gave to his guests everything his humble existence allowed. His Koans were robust and full of energy for the students. One after another realized Satori and travelled far and wide. People everywhere marveled at their Compassion and sought them out to learn about the Buddha.

Meanwhile, the Master of the Monastery soon found himself alone and forgotten.

PairTheBoard