50NL A bit of sillyness

[Gelford]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

BB ($67.16)
UTG ($86.75)
Hero ($47.45)
Button ($17.18)
SB ($50.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $4</font>, Hero calls $2.20.

<font color="blue">Not many reads on villian havent played with him before seems decent, a tag. I've been runing around 25/23 maybe slightly more. His minraise looks stupid, so ..... </font>

Flop: ($8.25) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3.

<font color="blue"> OK, so I've flopped middle pair, he cbets ... I decide to call. </font>


Turn: ($14.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9</font>, BB calls $9.

<font color="blue"> OK ... a slight hesitation and check, the jack makes me happy, I maybe way behind, but he will let me know if I am, I bet this mofo </font>

River: ($32.25) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $8</font>,

<font color="blue">Hero ... ??? </font>


Most likely this is a simple hand, but I wnat to start posting again, and just played this, so ... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[fees]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t276/feess/bunnycakes.jpg

[PJo336]

Fold pre, fold post, check turn..haha idk, go with your reads on him. I find it confusing how small he bets on the river. Im just curious enough to pay him off to see what he has. I play at 25nl mostly, and this kinda bet usually shows weakness. HOWEVER, they also cant fold a wide variety of hands, so he may call you with some random unexpected hand, or even show you a jack just to mess with you.

I would fold to the river unless you really wanna see because I dont see why he would call the turn then bet str8 into you unless he has a hand and is worried you are going to check.

Or maybe hes clever enough to bet tiny to limit your river bet? Maybe im making this hand too interesting in my head than what it really is. Next time fold preflop

[WHITEBOYAEHS]

ummmmmmmmm personally... i am a FR player trying to consistantly beat it before i switch to short handed poker. i think preflop is fine...i attempt to steal the blinds here with hands like this in the cut off...and i am not mad at your calling his minraise either... even though he probably has a monster and wants to keep you in the hand and suspects you are stealing(in this case he would be correct) for this reason i will fold the flop and get away from the hand. you said on the turn that you are maybe way behind...and he will let you know if you are. his bet on the river and his call on the turn are all consistant with how i have observed the sob's here at unl disguise hands like AA...you are not going to win this pot.

[Gelford]

lol fees ... a classic /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RobBizzle]

Fold PF.

[Antinome]

There's really only one question. Can he fold QQ (substitute range of hands if you like} for 23 more bucks getting ~3:1 more than ~35% of the time?

Answer: No

[Check_The_Nuts]

Gelford,

This post sucks. You raised suited junk from MP, got donked into, and decided to "run with it" or something. I don't know, the whole thing is ugly IMO.

[kaz2107]

well obv u have to bet to win here almost always. if u think he is good enough to fold mid PPs to a reasonable raise then raise away. if he isnt capable of layin that down then muck this and move on. there is no way he is foldin n e J and no way he is foldin an over pair. but i think a big part of his range is mid pairs so if he will lay those down then fire at will as far as im concerned (altho my image would b better then urs i assume at this stage since im not an aggro maniac like u /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Gelford,

This post sucks. You raised suited junk from MP, got donked into, and decided to "run with it" or something. I don't know, the whole thing is ugly IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]


A fellow 2p2'er asked me yesterday on AIM how come I never post any hands

So far I've gotten a couple of fold pf advice and a couple saying I dunno

Thing is, that I know how to play abc poker, I can nit it up with the best. But these kinds of situations are interesting.

Karpanen suggested the STT Trained Monkey approach to me on Aim (so for the only line I've gottten). That is to check behind turn and call river if it is not too big. That line is the bread and butter of sng players and makes a lot of sense, but I dunno ... shania is whispering in my ear and telling me to bet turn. Still thinking about that one.

Thac liked the turn bet, but hated everything else about this hand. (The only two people I've discussed this hand with so far)

Also I do give a description of how I run and am perceived by the table, in the usual PT stats format, but it is there.

I am not used to playing in this style, so I'm all open ears to input, but c'mon. uNL gotta be able to do better than this.

[Gelford]

Thx Kaz .... would you fold pf, flop or river ?

[orange]

silliness indeed. played strangely on all streets.

first and foremost, fold pf. but you dont need to hear that.

flop is an okay one to float one. plus his bet is super weak. fine float with me.

turn i like. he'll often fold his whatever hand. checking and hoping to get to showdown is tempting as well though. but the bet may fold out better hands like 88 or whatever so i dont mind it.

river i think you should give up. given stacks/pot size, i dont think he's folding anything.

so, in summary, i would fold pf first and always.

i would call the flop if i got there and usually bet the turn.

i would fold the river.

[Gelford]

OK orange .... two questions.


First of all, why fold pf ... it is a minraise, pot odds are 3-1 and I might still hit a hand

And what range do you put him on at the river since a 4 to 1 call can't be justified (no overs ?? )

[Vyse]

You are not likely to flop the hand to go all three streets with it, leaving you relying on turn and river. Pot odds are not an excuse to play badly.

[jonyy6788]

if you wanna play postflop, raise that terrible flop bet (more often than not I bet you take it down /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
You are not likely to flop the hand to go all three streets with it, leaving you relying on turn and river. Pot odds are not an excuse to play badly.

[/ QUOTE ]


I can flop two pair, I can hit a FD and a pair .. or I can float, I do have position after all

[barryc83]

I personally wouldnt call pf. Its a miniraise and I pretty much call with anything I raise with but not this hand, JMI.

Anyways, thats a weak sauce cbet and a pretty dry flop so I dont mind the float. That J was a great card for you. I might bet like $11 here though (not sure if that matters, but it looks a little more formidable). When he bets the river youre giving him like 3.5:1 if you push and I dont think he folds enough. I have lost a lot of money by trying to get people to fold pps in this spot. I tend to give up, especially since hes relatively unknown.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
if you wanna play postflop, raise that terrible flop bet (more often than not I bet you take it down /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


That is my kneejerk reaction, but I had already raised a couple of donkbets in the last couple of orbits, so I went for the call also keeping in mind the possibility of an overpair I wanted another street to read in ... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Isura]

Preflop/flop is bad.

River is interesting. You should shove it in.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop/flop is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

God dammit son of a [censored], stop saying something is bad and tell me why it is bad .... hyachahyachaca .... God Bless America /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Austiger]

I think PF is bad because I don't see any reason to include Q6s in your raising range from CO. Are you raising the top 50% of your hands? That's way too loose to be profitable for all but the best post-flop players. The only other reason to raise is for disguise, i.e. when you raise UTG and the flop comes 665, you don't want villain to be able to say "he has an overpair or nothing." But there is no disguise in this spot because he knows you could have a Q or a 6 or two suited cards.

[Austiger]

BTW, and I'm not trying to pile on here but I think it's relevant, I find myself getting an urge to do things like this when I'm tired or on tilt. When I'm tired, I quit. When I'm on tilt I go ahead and lose tons of money like everybody else.

[AntonHeat]

This might have been against me , cause it seems familiar.

[Gelford]

If the hand A<font color="green">/images/graemlins/club.gif</font> K<font color="green">/images/graemlins/club.gif</font> also seems familiar, then it was you.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

If you raise the river, he will fold.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Thx Kaz .... would you fold pf, flop or river ?

[/ QUOTE ]
well me personally i dont raise that from tha CO very often but u kno im a nit /images/graemlins/smile.gif so id deff b foldin to a minraise but blah who cares bout preflop.

as for tha whole hand here if u wanna extract tha most EV (which i dont see much obv) but i guess u could use a line of call tha flop and then check behind on river with tha plan of callin a half pot sized bet or smaller on tha river. seem reasonable?!?!

[avfletch]

The biggest problem I have with preflop is that you don't list a read or stats for button and without it I don't think you can play Q6s in the CO. At these stakes, especially on Party, it's just too likely that button is a calling machine and you're stuck playing it OOP which sucks a lot.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem I have with preflop is that you don't list a read or stats for button and without it I don't think you can play Q6s in the CO. At these stakes, especially on Party, it's just too likely that button is a calling machine and you're stuck playing it OOP which sucks a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well to be frank, I have no recollection of btn at all and I've been fairly active, so it is safe to assume btn is a nit

[Check_The_Nuts]

Ok gelford I enjoyed your video and think your aggression is good most of the time and everything, but in isolation this hand looks terrible. Here's why I think this:

Preflop I'm not sure of your reasoning for raising a hand like Q6s preflop. Personally I would only do this if blinds folded &gt;80% regardless of how often I stole. My steal is quite high (like 30%ish I think), and it regularly gets to 40-60%, but I just don't see a hand like Q6 having any value. Your not gunna hit any deceptive draws, and your not sure if your Q is live that often either, overall the hand just doesn't have any value, its like raising J7s or whatever, its just crap man, straight up.

Calling the minraise after you effectively "bluffed" preflop sucks too. You don't hit two pair/trips on every single board man, and besides that your Q just isn't a live enough out to warrant a call. Plus the lack of connectiveness of your hand makes it impossible to flop a straight.

The flop float is blah. You should keep preflop in mind. You've probably been raising a [censored] in LP versus blinds, and the guy just isn't that likely to believe you. Also, say your float doesn't work, your drawing to just 3 outs to hit a better hand, not more. From an equity point of view getting caught here is terrible.

On the turn the float is OK, and I guess this is the "best" or "highlight" of this hand. But there's a mindblock for people of $$ of 5 and 10, especially the two digits. You gotta make a two digit bet here to expect a fold. Betting 9 is weaksauce and I can see him looking you up often.

In your video you preached about double barrelling or floating with gutshots etc., and thats how you made sure your not bluffing too often/you always have outs to suckout. In this hadn it looks like your bluffing &gt;50% of the time versus villian. Obvious leak. And your bluffing with a hand you cannot suckout on. The jack is scary and a good card and all, but you don't know its going to fall when you call the flop. You also talked about how A6/A7 are crappy hands to play. WTF makes Q6s THAT much better. I think you know this hand is terrible, and thats why I didn't give any real comments on the hand in my first post.

I dont' play that straightforward either most of the time. Check the microbrew thread for the whinning about me shoving with Ace high in reraised pots/shoving with OESD. Obviously I believe there's some metagame crap going on in those hands, and they probably aren't me just getting bored. However, these hands reek of boredom to me. (Not to say the hands that are posted of mine in the microbrew are particularly well-played).

Put it this way, if everyone said your stats are 60/40/3 and this hand was posted by that villian, everyone would be like yup thats why he's bad. Yet put this in the hands of a well-known poster who gives good advice in most threads, and all the sudden its OK. I just don't agree...

[dodgybob]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop/flop is bad.

River is interesting. You should shove it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Gelford]

Except for me, there aren't many saying this hand is ok, allthough you are the first one to actually give the reasoning behind your critique ... /images/graemlins/smile.gif


I dunno, most of it where timing tells, I guess .... allthough I can't see anything wrong with pf (and I am aware that it contradicts what I am 'preaching' in my vid)

Oh and Im not a 60/30 ... only 25/23 usually ... sometimes it gets up to 27/25

PS. Glad you liked the vid, It is sort of my carpal/tunnel post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Except for me, there aren't many saying this hand is ok, allthough you are the first one to actually give the reasoning behind your critique ... /images/graemlins/smile.gif


I dunno, most of it where timing tells, I guess .... allthough I can't see anything wrong with pf (and I am aware that it contradicts what I am 'preaching' in my vid)

Oh and Im not a 60/30 ... only 25/23 usually ... sometimes it gets up to 27/25

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah its almost like if you said in your video, "Yeah and SOMETIMES I just go ahead and raise any two suited from some position other than UTG. THEN if I think villian is bluffing cuz of timing tells (which are maybe 80% reliable AT BEST) I'll go on some kinda crazy bluff thing postflop with few outs and I'm basically screwed everytime he reads me as a bluff. But whatever I'm not 60/30 and I read 2p2 so I must be doing something right!" end quote...

my point with the 60/30 comments is they suck because they bluff with too huge of a range. I follow these guys up the limits just to call with junk when they try to predictably bluff me with queen high. If your raising like 50/60 percent of your hands you are the guys above (cuz those guys aren't positionally aware). In fact your probably worse than that. So just realize your bluffing wayyyyy too often and you should have a read that villian doesn't mind folding a hand.

I rarely take the time to completely explain my thoughts just cuz I don't find it to be worth it. I think I got something out of your video so I don't mind giving complete explanations.

and I find the same thing when I post. Very few useful comments and half the time I end up answering my own question on my own. Whatever....

edit: and yeah, I'm guilty of not making any pooh-bah post. Whatever oh well.

[Loc0Loc0]

Think you should raise the river ... Looks like a pretty nice blokking bet? You're only get raised by better hands. I don't see the reraiser have an J holding in his hand. And a boat isn't likely to....

Btw nice stats 25/23...

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
OK orange .... two questions.


First of all, why fold pf ... it is a minraise, pot odds are 3-1 and I might still hit a hand

And what range do you put him on at the river since a 4 to 1 call can't be justified (no overs ?? )

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, i might call the second time around, but open raising with q6s is pretty nasty in general.

his range? i think he has stuff like QQ+ alot, sometimes scared of the J (thus the river block), sometimes he has Jx sometimes he has 77, or some other mid pair or whatever. sometimes he has a whiffed AK.

isura's idea of shoving is tempting, but im not sure if i like that as much.

[Davey Valentine]

Umm no offence dude. But you put 8x bb in pre flop with q-6 suited and your calling him down with bottom pair lame kicker. You even describe him as a TAG player so why would you do this? IMO the only thing you could beat that he would have is A-K

[Gelford]

Here is what I have concluded:

I stand by pf.

I stand by flop.

Turn might be meh with the check call river line being better.

My river call ..... well .... meh ..... but I got lucky and he showed AK


Still didn't imagine this hand getting so much attention and discussion. Cool !! ... thx all /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[IshiP2U]

"Pay him off?" What?!?!?! If you think Villain is capable of a blocking bet here shove it (he's really going to look us up with TT?)

[Spanky1974]

Gelford,
this thread is too long for me to read, so I'll Grunch this as I have been in the spot way too often (and called and pushed too often). Villain usually likes his medium/weak strength hand and seems to be trying to get value from it. He doesn't believe that you have a jack. Sometimes it's a jack, QQ, TT, A9, Q9 etc.. The c/c line on the turn is for value against someone that will bet here most of the time. I think someone that minraises PF , and has half his stack in on the river is not going to fold to a shove on the river very often. I don't think this hand is simple, but I think villains line is planned out (or maybe I just see a conspiracy).

[Jay Riall]

Haven't read much of the thread but if you think preflop is fine then you have a seriously terrible basic understanding of poker. Can't be bothered explaining why you really should know after 3500+ posts. I run similar numbers to you and don't often raise Q6s from the button let alone CO.