Folding on the flop

[luked]

I am new to poker and having read GSIH's small stakes no limit part I am ready to start playing (and hopefully learning more by playing!). However I wanted to check with the ultra tight system Ed Miller recommends, if the flop completely misses me and someone bets on the flop before it gets to me should I fold (thinking they have a better hand) or should I go all in as I bet preflop?


Also which websites and games (preferably small stakes) out there tend to be quite loose for small stakes NL?

Thanks

[FilthyCarlos]

I would assume that if you've read GSIH that you'd realise this question doesn't have a Yes/NO answer.

It's all dependant on your position, your cards, the flop and of course your opposition among other factors.

Of course if you fold everytime you miss the flop at least you won't be running into any trouble, which may the correct course of action when you first start playing.

As for sites, i play on PartyPoker but even the smallest NL and PL games might be a bit high for a complete beginner, Poker Stars offers lower stakes and is probably a better site to start out at. Plus i believe the play is relatively loose, although now adays i find most big sites to all be fairly similar.

I'll also take this oppurtunity to say hello to everyone at 2+2 since this is my first post after a number of weeks of lurking!

[scorer]

to the OP..why would you go all in if the flop missed you..do u have a pair?? You ask a good question..one that i would like to hear some others chime in. I have chased many pots and have lost lots of money. I would say for example if you have A/K and the flop comes 4/6/8/ and he bets..depending on the amount you can call...but realize if the bets are of a larger amount he might have trips...hence pay attention if u limped in PF or raised. Some people will play anything even if they are raised. Like the poster said..if you miss on the flop folding is the safer way to go.

[maccamack]

This is an interesting question, mainly because I don't know exactly what is being asked. I will therefore answer what I think is being asked.

What do you do if you raise with a hand pre-flop and are bet into post flop?

If it is a pot sized bet or bigger and you have AK - you fold. If it is a very small bet (which you often see at lower levels), I re-raise to pot size to see what the guy is up to.

In my experience these little bets mean one of three things:

1. They have a monster
2. They are drawing to something
3. They've got something - a small pair maybe and want to find out where they are - a feeler bet if you will.

The re-raise to pot size usually knocks out 2 and 3, whereas the monster comes back at you - in which case you can fold.

Going all in post flop supposes you have AA, KK and possibly QQ and you think the board can't of helped anyone. Look for straight and flush draws as the reason someone has bet into you small.

Personally I don't like the All-in move post flop unless 1. you are convinced you are getting a caller with a worse hand or 2. you don't want a caller and are looking at a draw heavy board (you want to take the pot down straight away). In terms of 1.

Four bits of advice (for what they are worth):

1. Aces and Kings can be beaten - you need to learn how to fold them
2. Take lots of notes on opponents
3. Get poker tracker.
4. Play within your bankroll - if you only have $50 - 1c and 2c no limit games are fine - I think you need about 25 max buy ins for each level you want to play at.

As to sites - many of the big ones have loose games at lower levels.I think Paradise is good for the micro limit stuff (I don't play there). If I were starting off again I would look for high flop % and low average pot size - aggressive games can be v. scary as a beginner.

Good luck at the tables....

[lucid]

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4. Play within your bankroll - if you only have $50 - 1c and 2c no limit games are fine - I think you need about 25 max buy ins for each level you want to play at.


[/ QUOTE ]

He probably wont need 25 max buyins as he looks to be playing with a short stack. Perhaps $200-$300 would suffice in 25NL max buyin games? If he's playing Ed's small stack strategy then I don't believe the games will be too tough.

Regards,
lucid

[just2ska]

never fold sooted cards until you've seen the river

[Garon]

Hi luked, welcome to our world (you too Carlos),

I haven't read that book, but I think going allin on the flop with nothing in small stakes NL like this is a good way to be making lots of rebuys. In other words, you'll be losing a lot. If you are frequently going allin with nothing you will be looked up.

If I made a PFR in position and got bet into when I missed the flop I would fold and make a note something like "Does he bluff into the PFR?". Then I'll watch and see if he does or not. If he doesn't I erase my note, if he does I change it to "bluffs into PFR on the flop". It's very rare at small stakes for someone to bluff into the PFR so I'm certainly not going to find out by risking my chips the first time it happens to me. BTW, every time I wrote that note I've had to erase it.

Garon

[BalugaWhale]

Hey, whats up new poster friends.

Some simple rules- tight is right. Play very tightly preflop.

If you raise before the flop, and one or two people call, make a bet on the flop the size of the pot.

If someone leads into you, use judgment whether or not to raise.

Remember this: If somebody raises you at 25NL, they generally HAVE THE GOODS. So unless you too HAVE THE GOODS, it's time to get out.

much love kiddo's, good luck and read the forums A LOT before getting too post-happy. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Pokey]

A handy piece of advice:

If you NEVER bluffed at a small-stakes no-limit hold'em table, you wouldn't be far from right.

There are times when you'd want to bluff; the situation you describe is NOT one of them. Fold and try again next time.

[EMc]

I reviewed GSIH when I got it for my dad for christmas, so I am relatively familar with the system.

The underlying concept behind the system is the elimination of tough turn and river decisions. That said, there is no necessarly right answer.

Obviously, AA/KK/QQ should be automatic in pushing on a dry board (i.e. no overs). AK-AQ, those TPTK hands, if you hit you commit. Pocket pairs below 88 are pretty much trash, and on dry flops with AK a lot of the time you will be ahead and should push. It is unlikely that the flop hit your opponent either, remember that.

With AK, AQ and hands that give you overcards to the board, your first step is to evaluate how clean the overs are. On a hand where you raised PF and its a Jxx or Qxx, it is unlikely all of them are clean, and if bet into, game over. However, on a 468 or other dry flop, they may be clean, and if the pot is giving you decent odds you can call. Personally, I just muck when Im bet into with missed overs, as all I am doing is getting myself involved in a potnetially big pot with a marginal hand at best.

[FilthyCarlos]

I would say bluffing at small-stakes no-limit can work, but you need to have expericence of playing at those tables before you try.

If you only starting to play i would definitley steer clear of bluffing to begin with, you could end up in trouble.

[Garon]

Hi EMcWilliams,

I don't think I like this book after reading your statements about it.

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The underlying concept behind the system is the elimination of tough turn and river decisions

[/ QUOTE ]

I find the turn and river relatively pretty easy to play. For me the flop is where the decision is made once you are in the pot. Is that just me?

[ QUOTE ]
on dry flops with AK a lot of the time you will be ahead and should push

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I see with this is you win a tiny pot when Ace high is the best hand and only get called when you are beat and lose your whole stack, and you only have 6 outs (maybe not all clean as you mentioned, and also you may hit your out and still be behind).

If your read on this book is correct I think it's a horrible book!

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I just muck when Im bet into with missed overs, as all I am doing is getting myself involved in a potnetially big pot with a marginal hand at best

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take your strategy over that books strategy every day of the week and twice on Sundays /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Garon

[endeavor]

The shorty NL strat that Miller talks about GSIH is for absolute beginners that want to get into cash games. Most 2p2ers aren't going to find the strategy that useful, but the strategy is not meant for the relatively skilled average 2p2er. One of the major points of the strategy is to stop the common beginner leak of putting money into the pot after the flop with TPWK or middle pair. It is far from optimal, but it will allow a beginner to get a feel for NL cash games without losing their shirt, even if they are unlucky enough to sit at a table with decent players.