AQ hand against maniac NL50

[evazan]

This guy has been running about about 45/40 over the last 50 hands but post flop he hasn't been very aggressive.

$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/)

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $93.95</font>
BB: $50
UTG: $64.95
MP: $50.55
CO: $50
<font color="black">BTN: $40</font>

CO posts $0.50
<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, MP folds, CO checks, <font color="red">BTN raises to $4</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16</font>, 3 folds, BTN calls $12

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($33.50) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero ?? </font>

I thought he could be raising the button there with just about any 2 and was hoping to take it down there. After the call I'm not too sure what range to put him on. I think a villain like him would be raising QQ-AA again so my guess was he had AK or a lower pocket.

Should I give up on this pot here or push?

[AJGibson]

He only has $24 left, easy shove IMO

[Margin Of Error]

I think 3 betting a loose player with AQo OOP is just asking to put yourself in a [censored] spot on the flop. You basically have to either C/F or shove, and if you get called your AT BEST a coinflip.

This hand would be stupidly easy to get away from had you just called PF.

[evazan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting a loose player with AQo OOP is just asking to put yourself in a [censored] spot on the flop. You basically have to either C/F or shove, and if you get called your AT BEST a coinflip.

This hand would be stupidly easy to get away from had you just called PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. In the blinds against this type of player I am either reraising or folding but never just calling. I didn't want to see a flop this hand and thought that my bet would fold out a large part of villains range.

[Margin Of Error]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting a loose player with AQo OOP is just asking to put yourself in a [censored] spot on the flop. You basically have to either C/F or shove, and if you get called your AT BEST a coinflip.

This hand would be stupidly easy to get away from had you just called PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. In the blinds against this type of player I am either reraising or folding but never just calling. I didn't want to see a flop this hand and thought that my bet would fold out a large part of villains range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a tight player this logic makes sense, but vs. a loose villian you arent really defining his range much more when you 3 bet him OOP, hes going to call your 3 bet with alot of hands when hes got the button. Then all you accomplish is being in a spot where you've got to shove with a marginal hand vs. a undefined range or c/f a pot that you inflated hugely preflop. Neither of which are hugely +EV plays.

[WHITEBOYAEHS]

*grunch

against someone with those stats i am not repopping that hand against a villain with those stats...and this situation is exactly the reason i dont. you have no clue where you are...betting sucks because nothing better folds and nothing worse calls...and if you check and villain(despite loose stats) is semi decent he is going to put you to the test and make you fold... in this situation i check and give up but iono if it's just me but oop in the sb ill raise aqo sure but def not 3bet someone who has a reasonable stack.

[evazan]

[ QUOTE ]
betting sucks because nothing better folds and nothing worse calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to disagree here. I believe I could get villain to fold any pocket pair 10 10 and lower that didn't have a set and AK. If he calls with a lower pocket pair I'm not in that bad shape. 6 overs and a backdoor flush.

Does everyone play AQ so passively here pf. I think just calling here is terrible. If I call and don't hit my only play is check folding and if I do hit theres a good chance villain had garbage and wont pay off. I see the only options as raising or folding.

[WHITEBOYAEHS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting sucks because nothing better folds and nothing worse calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to disagree here. I believe I could get villain to fold any pocket pair 10 10 and lower that didn't have a set and AK. If he calls with a lower pocket pair I'm not in that bad shape. 6 overs and a backdoor flush.

Does everyone play AQ so passively here pf. I think just calling here is terrible. If I call and don't hit my only play is check folding and if I do hit theres a good chance villain had garbage and wont pay off. I see the only options as raising or folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) no villain is folding any type of pocket pair for this big of a pot. ok im sorry i forgot about AK

2) overs and a BACKDOOR FLUSH suck on the flop...suited overs preflop are good...overs+fd are ahead of a low pair...but the backdoor flush adds like one out or something so ok you have 7 outs...you are in terrible shape here and if you play oop like this every time you will go broke very soon

3) you can not generalize in poker. ''does everyone play aq this passively pf?'' is a very ignorant question IMO. most, probably all decent players notice those stats and that theyre oop and adjust play accordingly for a villain with those stats. if i had your hand on the button and was raised by someone from the cut off i am definitly 3betting. the reason for that is to put HIM in the situation you are in right now...basically forcing him to hit the flop. being OOP sucks, do not build pots with unmade hands from the small blind if you don't need to!

[Margin Of Error]

[ QUOTE ]


being OOP sucks, do not build pots with unmade hands from the small blind if you don't need to!

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, risking $16 to win $5 versus a villian who most of the time is going to call you is just a poor play in general, even moreso when OOP.

[prodonkey]

The only thing shoving "might" make him fold is 2's 3's and 4's.. you're getting called by everything else.. possibly even AK. The only thing you're going to be ahead of is something like 9T or JT, AT, AJ that he won't fold.

I don't like playing AQo in this situation where he can virtually have anything. I'd either fold or call preflop depending on my mood.. I'm not 3 betting him very often though.

As played I think I push.. you have some fold equity.. and you already put 16 in.. he only has 24 left.

[Nthnuts]

His PFR is huge, is that standard for him?

[evazan]

Ok, I understand the negatives of my pf raise but how would play this hand pf. I still don't see a call as being profitable and how can we fold when we are crushing his range. He is 45/40, not 45/10. I would not have made this play against a 45/10 because they are not folding pf.

[evazan]

[ QUOTE ]
His PFR is huge, is that standard for him?

[/ QUOTE ]

This wasn't standard but this was the first time I've noticed him on the button with limper's in front. I thought there was a strong possibility he was going for a steal.

[Margin Of Error]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His PFR is huge, is that standard for him?

[/ QUOTE ]

This wasn't standard but this was the first time I've noticed him on the button with limper's in front. I thought there was a strong possibility he was going for a steal.

[/ QUOTE ]


OOP with AQo is the wrong time to play back at him. Call and hit the flop or fold pf. Both are valid options, I have no problem laying down AQo in spots like this, not because the hand doesnt have value but because it has very little value OOP against this type of villian.

[demon102]

I think I woulda played like op before I read this thread but now it seems that trying to hit a flop and letting villan hand himself if a better option. Like if u hit lead out for a small amount and hope the maniac raises u.

[Chomp]

I agree with the general principle of not getting into tricky spots oop, but there's something confusing me about the analysis here.

As most people have said, villain could have (almost) any two cards here - but why are we assuming those ATC are better than AQ either preflop or on flop?

Isn't the best strategy against a 45/40 to mercilessly 3b him preflop, getting him to call with his random trash (he could have 9T or QJ or AT or whatever) and then following through on flop given you have both likely missed? For once Hero TAG treats LAG to his own medicine.

Or is the board texture in this specific case just too dangerous?

.........

EDIT: Meh, nevermind. There are a million reasons this is the wrong moment, not least of which villain's pf raise size, which I misread. Bloody LAG bastards drive me nuts (not offence to present company of course /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

[Margin Of Error]

[ QUOTE ]


Or is the board texture in this specific case just too dangerous?

[/ QUOTE ]

His "random trash" as you put it could have us easily dominated on the flop. Look how connected the board is.

[Let_it_rain]

I think that a call preflop here is the only option, if he is as loose aqs you say then when we hit big we take his $36 by check calling, and when we miss we lose $4. When playing against LAGs You call more and raise less this is so that you only have to play when you hit and can let him have it the othertimes.

Too often you see players building pots for LAGs and letting them have them, as played I'm pushing here.

[evazan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that a call preflop here is the only option, if he is as loose aqs you say then when we hit big we take his $36 by check calling, and when we miss we lose $4. When playing against LAGs You call more and raise less this is so that you only have to play when you hit and can let him have it the othertimes.

Too often you see players building pots for LAGs and letting them have them, as played I'm pushing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think calling here is the worst play I could have made. Like I said, he has been extremely lag pre-flop but post flop he really calms down. His c-bet frequency was only around 50% and turn and river frequency were even lower. He wasn't a calling station post flop either. If I call and do hit my hand I'm probably not going to make enough money to offset the times I miss and check fold. This is especially true because most times in this situation he has trash.

I didn't think about the fact that this play could be worse here because of the big raise but now that makes sense. One of the things that I think made this hand play out weird was the odd stack sizes and what he had left after I raised big pf. If he made a standard to raise to 4bb things could have been much different.

[payday]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have to disagree here. I believe I could get villain to fold any pocket pair 10 10 and lower that didn't have a set and AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think this? have you been playing extra tight and he has noticed? His pf call indicates he isn't giving you much credit or he has a hand himself.

[Isura]

Fold PF. Also, PF reraise is too big. I would just check/fold the flop now because most likely he has a PP after calling such a big raise (unless he is a huge donkey).

[Isura]

MarginofError,

Calling preflop here is by far the worst. You are going to end up folding the best hand so often.

[Let_it_rain]

If this is the case I don't hate (I don't love it at all though,) the raise here to keep him in line.

But if your raising it's an auto push on the flop, but hopefully it won't normally go this far. Also i like the reraise to the tune of $12 on the odd occasion you make it. Then if he calls you can feel him out with a 3/4 to pot bet on the flop if he's not a calling station as you say you'll soon know where you stand.

[evazan]

Isura,

If he raised a normal amount of 3-4bb would you re-raise here. If it helps answer the question and if I remember right I was playing about 22/20 at this table and had most likely 3 bet once or twice since villain set down so I do not have a nitty image.

[Let_it_rain]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF. Also, PF reraise is too big. I would just check/fold the flop now because most likely he has a PP after calling such a big raise (unless he is a huge donkey).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure we can give him credit for a pocket pair if he's running at 45/40 so QJ and all other similar junky hands are a part of his range don't you think.

In my opinion this guy may well be a HUGE donkey.