I'm always in these spots.... shortie & tiltie

[kurto]

At work with no hand history. But I got the feel of it:

Full Tilt $50 Six max-

BB has about $12. BB was about 33/12. Most important is he has been losing hand over fist and tilting like mad. He did NOT start as a shortstack. He was been playing like a complete overaggressive moron for many hands now. Did I mention he's tilting?

UTG+1 is a shortie who bought in for $20 and has made like .50 since sitting down.

I have button and a little better then full stack.

folds to utg+1 who raises to $2. folds to me with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Seems shorties stack is just enough to play for set value and blinds may come along as well... so I call.

sb fold. BB pushes his $11.5. shortie almost uses up his time and calls. I had decided if he didn't push then I was in the hand for sure. Just wasn't sure if I was going to push or call.

He calls. And I decide to call.

Flop-
3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Shortie pauses and then pushes the rest of his stack.

I call.

I guess my question goes to the decision- When the tilter pushes and the shortstack calls half his stack... are pocket 9s strong enough to regularly felt? What range do you felt here (assume that the tilting player has ATC- shortstack player has a hand that the kind of person who sits down at a $50 table with $20 will call here. (which to me means any pair, and Ace-broadway... possibly suited aces).

[kurto]

I'm posting hands no one wants to comment on.

What if I dress it up as a poll?

[RobAtticus]

Personally, a fold seems more likely preflop to me. You're no longer gettting set value for your hand and if he's got a hand like TT, JJ, or QQ you're destroyed, and AK/AQ/AJ have you flipping with little implied odds (shortie only has like 8-9 after his preflop call).

But since you called preflop, that flop probably doesn't hurt you, so might as well call the shortie's push on the flop.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, a fold seems more likely preflop to me.

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Even though the guy pushing can have literally any 2 cards? You don't think pocket 9s is likely to have 33% equity against the range of the shortie and the tilting person? (honestly, its ONLY the shortstack I'm concerned about. And since he didn't push, I genuinely don't give him much credit.)

So... what hands to you NOT fold against these kinds of opponents?

[citizenwind]

Could you see the shortie calling there with AA or KK trying to get you to call?

[RobAtticus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, a fold seems more likely preflop to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though the guy pushing can have literally any 2 cards? You don't think pocket 9s is likely to have 33% equity against the range of the shortie and the tilting person? (honestly, its ONLY the shortstack I'm concerned about. And since he didn't push, I genuinely don't give him much credit.)

So... what hands to you NOT fold against these kinds of opponents?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not worried about the tilting person, it's more about the shortie. Essentially you're paying $20 to play your pocket 9s. If you call preflop,, you HAVE to call after the flop almost certainly. The shortie started the raising, so its entirely possible that he has TT+ and is feigning weakness preflop to get you to come along with smaller pairs he can beat (like 88, 99, etc).

I just don't see the point in throwing in tons of money preflop with a hand that could very easily be dominated in this situation. I see this play done all the time with the shortie holding AA/KK.

citizenwind - Agreed.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you see the shortie calling there with AA or KK trying to get you to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could he? Certainly. But there's $25 in dead money when you have to make the decision and the shortie only has less then another 10 that can go in. That's a lot of dead money in the pot without a lot of future risk (another $10).

I think the difficult part is figuring out their ranges. The tilty guy really is any 2 cards. I feel very confident that we're ahead of his range.

The shorty is more difficult, especially since he's new to the table. But my thoughts are- until I see otherwise, I assume most shorties are bad players. I don't think even 1 out of 20 short stack players are actually playing a shortstack strategy. They are simply bad players who are afraid to buy in full.

Furthermore, even if the player IS playing a proper shortstack strategy, that would mean he has ANY pair and any decent ace.

Last- I am more inclined to believe the shorty pushes with AA or KK. My read is that his hesitation and smoothcall is more likely a sign of weakness. At least ENOUGH times that folding here would be weak.

I could be way off as a general rule, but that's why I posted. I would curious to hear if others give similar reads to shortstacks (that is... most of them suck and aren't adjusting for stack size).

[Matt Ruff]

Preflop, once BB goes all-in and UTG+1 calls, I think you should either fold or push. Calling commits you to a showdown anyway -- or at least, it should -- so if you're going to play, get your money in now, when you are most likely to be ahead.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, once BB goes all-in and UTG+1 calls, I think you should either fold or push. Calling commits you to a showdown anyway -- or at least, it should -- so if you're going to play, get your money in now, when you are most likely to be ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this answer best. I think I should have just pushed. By calling, I expected to call any flop bet unless the flop was AKQ...

Results-
Flop was 366
Shorties pushes for the rest of his $8 or so.
I call.

Turn and river are inconsequential... like 4 and 10.
Tilter has J8. Shortie has 77.

MHIG

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
By calling, I expected to call any flop bet unless the flop was AKQ...

[/ QUOTE ]

But in this case, if the flop *had* been AKQ, and UTG+1 had the stones to bet it, folding would have been a $35 mistake. Even in the more likely case that he decided to check it down, you'd still miss out on the $9 left in his stack.

Notice also that by saying you'll call almost any flop bet, you're committing yourself to paying off AA-TT after all -- and if you're going to do that, it doesn't really make sense to worry about whether he's got those hands preflop. So the question becomes, does waiting for the flop increase your chances of stacking UTG+1 those times that he doesn't have AA-TT? I don't think it does.