Poll for NotReady

[arahant]

Please vote only if you are NotReady

[Lestat]

Jesus finds all who are worthy.

[Sephus]

notready 9/9/06

[ QUOTE ]
Can you at least agree that, had you been born and raised in Iraq, you would almost certainly have "heard" Allah's voice, and would likely be a Muslim right now?


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There are many in the West who are not Christians, and some throughout the world who are, including Muslim countries. God controls all the circumstances of the universe. That I was born here and eventually became a Christian is not an accident.

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[Prodigy54321]

God makes sure that the people who are most likely to reject Him are born in non-Christian countries...

probably so that they do not damn us all...praise the Lord for he is good.

[ShakeZula06]

I don't know how you could possibly vote no.

[m_the0ry]

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I don't know how you could possibly vote no.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a few people have pointed out a strong belief in 'fate' (or some form of preconceptive determinism) can lead to someone honestly believing the answer to this question is no.

A better question might be, how can you say no to this question and not be a bigot as it implies one's environment as decided by fate is what determines if they are worthy of salvation.

[PairTheBoard]

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I don't know how you could possibly vote no.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a few people have pointed out a strong belief in 'fate' (or some form of preconceptive determinism) can lead to someone honestly believing the answer to this question is no.

A better question might be, how can you say no to this question and not be a bigot as it implies one's environment as decided by fate is what determines if they are worthy of salvation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the reason NotReady doesn't have a problem with this is because he adheres to the Calvinist Doctrine of the "Elect". I suspect that it's for just these types of problems that the Elect Doctrine was created. To my mind it is just another Solution that actually Compounds the problems produced by the belief that eternal punishment waits for those who do not believe the right thing. The real solution is to scrap that tenet and adopt a view of Christianity and its place among World Religions along the lines presented by Sullivan Here. (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/04/deus_caritas_es.html)

From Andrew Sullivan's Final Reply in the debate with Harris
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(5) There is a God, but all of our religions have distorted Her reality. Jesus was a man more suffused with divinity than any other human being who has ever lived. God loves everyone and has never been concerned about what a person believes, except that a person know God and accept God's love freely and expresses that love toward everyone he or she encounters. Jesus uniquely showed us how to accept God's love and how to be worthy of it. After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace. But Jesus was the proof that such love exists, and that it is divine and eternal, and that it cares for us.

(6) None of us knows anything about these things.

I guess I've tipped my hand by endorsing (5) but acknowledging the wisdom of (6).
====================

I realize NotReady is the most fun to argue with because his positions are so malodorous to your Spiritual sensibilities. It's fun to see how he tries to justify them. Just be aware that they do not define Christianity.

PairTheBoard

[NotReady]

[bigpooch]

I could not choose one since both choices would be valid...
Do you see why? ("If pigs could fly...")

[David Sklansky]

There is actually little difference between Muslims and Christians. They both believe that there is an omnipotent designer that pays particular attention to humans and will sometimes let them remain conscious after their death.

The fact that they differ over minor details with such fervor and that there are so many different subsets of these religions that also differ with fervor, is pretty strong evidence that they are all idiots for being so sure of these details. On the other hand the real truth is that the fervor about those details is of the shallow kind. By that I mean that almost all religious people would be tickeled pink to find out that some other monotheistic religion was true, if such information meant that the general God mentioned earlier certainly existed. That probably includes Not Ready, especially since his better arguments relate to that general god. The only ones who would be shaken would be those who are in hot water if God doesn't forgive serial, serious, sinners.

So even though it is kind of fun to make fun of theists who stupidly think that their specific religion is objectively and obviously the truth, (by bringing up those who think that about other religions), atheists should concentrate on giving reasons why the more general personal god doesn't make much sense.

[NotReady]

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By that I mean that almost all religious people would be tickeled pink to find out that some other monotheistic religion was true


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you would be tickled pink to lay down your burden.

Pilgrim's Progress
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{93} He ran thus till he came at a place somewhat ascending, and
upon that place stood a cross, and a little below, in the bottom,
a sepulchre. So I saw in my dream, that just as Christian came up
with the cross, his burden loosed from off his shoulders, and fell
from off his back, and began to tumble, and so continued to do,
till it came to the mouth of the sepulchre, where it fell in, and
I saw it no more.

{94} Then was Christian glad and lightsome, and said, with a
merry heart, "He hath given me rest by his sorrow, and life by his
death." Then he stood still awhile to look and wonder; for it was
very surprising to him, that the sight of the cross should thus
ease him of his burden. He looked therefore, and looked again,
even till the springs that were in his head sent the waters down
his cheeks. [Zech. 12:10]


[/ QUOTE ]

For His yoke is easy and His burden light.

[latefordinner]

excellent response. at least andrew sullivan shows capacity for thought.

[Lestat]

Subtley funny, eloquent, and powerfully accurate. If this post were an Olympic dive, I'd think a 9.98 from the foreign judges, and perhaps a 10 from your home country would be reasonable.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
excellent response. at least andrew sullivan shows capacity for thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit it. I'm dumb.

Is the moral that even if a Christian's cross becomes too burdensome to bear, he can still find the Lord? I don't get it.

[donkeylove]

I asked this same question to a Christian minister one time. I had posed the question as from a Buddhist slant ie. if I was born in Thailand or Tibet. He pointed me to Acts 16. Paul desired to spread the gospel eastward but was advised in a dream by an angel or messenger to instead take the gospel westward, and from that point on it went west.

I would guess a Christian would have to assume that God knew that his message would be received there, while not received to the east. That also implies to me that their was something in the character of the people that was unreceptive to the message and was somehow generational.

If you believe in Christianity, you have to almost assume that rejection of Christ is passed down like a bad gene through cultures, and that present day Muslims have the same rebelliousness present that their ancesters did. I am not espousing this belief, but it makes more sense than denying you would be a Muslim if you were born in Saudi Arabia. You would almost have to believe that God blesses following generations if you adhered to a belief in him.

I know there are occasional exceptions in any Muslim country, and sects like Coptic Christians in Egypt, but they are very small in number, so it's very,very likely that born in SA means Muslim.

I would actually be interested in NotReadys response, because to me this question has always been unanswerable logically in any other way than there being something fundamentally missing in all other people who adhere to other faiths, if Christianity is in fact the true way.

[revots33]

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After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace.

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that's a load off my mind

[vhawk01]

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After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a load off my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Think how many man-hours, billions of dollars, and 'human suffering units' PTB's revelation would have on mankind. I don't mean that as an insult to PTB, it really would be great if everyone accepted that...I just don't think its very likely.

[kurto]

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God makes sure that the people who are most likely to reject Him are born in non-Christian countries...

probably so that they do not damn us all...praise the Lord for he is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Praise be to God!

[NotReady]

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I would actually be interested in NotReadys response


[/ QUOTE ]

6But (G)the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "(H)DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (I)ABYSS?' (that is, to (J)bring Christ up from the dead)."

8But what does it say? "(K)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, "(O)WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12For (P)there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (Q)Lord of (R)all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for "(S)WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him (T)whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without (U)a preacher?

15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "(V)HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO (W)BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

16However, they (X)did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "(Y)LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

17So faith comes from (Z)hearing, and hearing by (AA)the word of Christ.

18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"(AB)THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
"(AC)I WILL (AD)MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."

20And Isaiah is very bold and says,
"(AE)I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

[Hopey]

It's not surprising that when people ask NR for his thoughts, he responds my quoting scripture.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Is the moral that even if a Christian's cross becomes too burdensome to bear, he can still find the Lord?


[/ QUOTE ]

The burden is the individual's belief that he must be perfect accompanied by the guilt produced by his inability to meet that standard. The burden, yoke or cross of Christ is the loss of all the trivialities of this world for the glory that is to be revealed to us.

The loss of the classics in education has a heavy cost.

The availability of google ought to cure some of that loss.

[Hopey]

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The burden is the individual's belief that he must be perfect accompanied by the guilt produced by his inability to meet that standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not believe that I need to be perfect. Consequently, I feel very little guilt.

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The availability of google ought to cure some of that loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if I only use Google to search for porn?

[numchuck norris]

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There is actually little difference between Muslims and Christians. They both believe that there is an omnipotent designer that pays particular attention to humans and will sometimes let them remain conscious after their death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't anyone else think this is a bit of an overstatement? Let's say Joe believes in a god who fits these requirements, and I say I believe in god....but he believes in a god who occasionally swoops down and eats babies, but I'm pretty sure god doesn't do that...are we talking about the same god? Yeah, it's a weak analogy, but my point is that some details are inconsequential, but some define who we're talking about.

[vhawk01]

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There is actually little difference between Muslims and Christians. They both believe that there is an omnipotent designer that pays particular attention to humans and will sometimes let them remain conscious after their death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't anyone else think this is a bit of an overstatement? Let's say Joe believes in a god who fits these requirements, and I say I believe in god....but he believes in a god who occasionally swoops down and eats babies, but I'm pretty sure god doesn't do that...are we talking about the same god? Yeah, it's a weak analogy, but my point is that some details are inconsequential, but some define who we're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

The central point of his post was that, even if your gods are slightly (or even significantly) different, most theists would still prefer to learn that the other guys God absolutely, 100% exists, because its close enough for comfort. It makes sense. No intelligent Christian would claim he has a 100% accurate view of God, so if he found out he was wrong on a few choice details, so what?

The objection will be that all Christians (and perhaps Jews and Muslims?) would actually prefer NOT to know, because that eliminates faith, which is crucial. Many theists might claim this, but I'm skeptical. I think most would find it a relief.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
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After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a load off my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Think how many man-hours, billions of dollars, and 'human suffering units' PTB's revelation would have on mankind. I don't mean that as an insult to PTB, it really would be great if everyone accepted that...I just don't think its very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's Sullivan's viewpoint. However, I think you might be suprised at how many Religious or Spiritually Inclined people basically agree with it.

PairTheBoard

[vhawk01]

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After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a load off my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Think how many man-hours, billions of dollars, and 'human suffering units' PTB's revelation would have on mankind. I don't mean that as an insult to PTB, it really would be great if everyone accepted that...I just don't think its very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's Sullivan's viewpoint. However, I think you might be suprised at how many Religious or Spiritually Inclined people basically agree with it.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder. One of us would certainly be surprised. I hope you are correct, and I am well aware that my sample is biased, but it seems to be that a major positive in choosing to live your life according to some strict code is that you get the benefit and other people don't. Of course, 'strict code' might be an exaggeration for the majority of theists, but they might not see it that way. Anyhow, it seems to me that the type of theists would would agree with your statement, even if they are much greater in number than I'd expect, aren't the ones with the power or the voice or the ones causing the problems.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

What are you so caught up with this 'troll' business? I never called you a troll.

I just wanted an answer to the question from the other thread, which you wouldn't answer for some reason. It seemed like a straightforward question to me.

Fortunately, somebody went and dug up an answer you'd given 8 months ago. It wasn't a totally clear answer, but it did get close to the question.

Why make us guess what your stance is on these issues? You could have just said what you thought instead of telling us to read Romans.

FWIW, It's this kind of avoidance that makes other posters (again, not me) call you a troll.

I am genuinely curious why you refuse to answer some questions. Is it because you think ahead a step or two about the implications of your beliefs and find that the conclusions are indefensible? Or are you just being difficult?

[PairTheBoard]

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After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a load off my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Think how many man-hours, billions of dollars, and 'human suffering units' PTB's revelation would have on mankind. I don't mean that as an insult to PTB, it really would be great if everyone accepted that...I just don't think its very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's Sullivan's viewpoint. However, I think you might be suprised at how many Religious or Spiritually Inclined people basically agree with it.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder. One of us would certainly be surprised. I hope you are correct, and I am well aware that my sample is biased, but it seems to be that a major positive in choosing to live your life according to some strict code is that you get the benefit and other people don't. Of course, 'strict code' might be an exaggeration for the majority of theists, but they might not see it that way. Anyhow, it seems to me that the type of theists would would agree with your statement, even if they are much greater in number than I'd expect, aren't the ones with the power or the voice or the ones causing the problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. But like Bob Dylan once said, "The times they are a changin".

PairTheBoard

[vhawk01]

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After death, all people, Christians and non-Christians, simply merge with the Deity in a loving embrace.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a load off my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Think how many man-hours, billions of dollars, and 'human suffering units' PTB's revelation would have on mankind. I don't mean that as an insult to PTB, it really would be great if everyone accepted that...I just don't think its very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's Sullivan's viewpoint. However, I think you might be suprised at how many Religious or Spiritually Inclined people basically agree with it.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder. One of us would certainly be surprised. I hope you are correct, and I am well aware that my sample is biased, but it seems to be that a major positive in choosing to live your life according to some strict code is that you get the benefit and other people don't. Of course, 'strict code' might be an exaggeration for the majority of theists, but they might not see it that way. Anyhow, it seems to me that the type of theists would would agree with your statement, even if they are much greater in number than I'd expect, aren't the ones with the power or the voice or the ones causing the problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. But like Bob Dylan once said, "The times they are a changin".

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we disagree there as well! /images/graemlins/grin.gif They are a'changin', but it sure doesn't seem like they are changing in the right direction.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's Sullivan's viewpoint. However, I think you might be suprised at how many Religious or Spiritually Inclined people basically agree with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, it sounds nice and all - but it seems a little new-agey. It also sounds a lot like people inventing their own religion whenever they find things they don't like about the original one.

Don't get me wrong, I like yours (and Sullivan's) better... but it bears little similarity to what's in the bible. I'm not sure Christians are allowed to rewrite the fundamental rules as they see fit and still call themsleves Christians.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, I like yours (and Sullivan's) better... but it bears little similarity to what's in the bible. I'm not sure Christians are allowed to rewrite the fundamental rules as they see fit and still call themsleves Christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

They've been doing it since the creation of Christianity, so I don't see why they should stop now.

I don't really understand why atheists (or theists for that matter) say that you can't pick and choose from religions. Everyone picks and chooses. Either you do it yourself or you have your pastor do it for you. Personally, I think independent research is often more valuable than doing what people tell you to do.

(To go off on a tangent: This is also why I think think the idea of Biblical inerrancy is retarded. The interpretation of religious texts has been changing since the inception of religion. Why should religious folk stop now? Just because they are scared of "making God smaller" because maybe he didn't create the Earth in a week?)

[bigpooch]

"But you're gonna have to serve somebody..."

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]
"But you're gonna have to serve somebody..."

[/ QUOTE ]

"It might be the devil(he can be fascinating, he can be dull, he can ride down Niagra falls in the barrels of your skull), it might be the Lord"

[PairTheBoard]

"May you stay forever young"

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
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Actually, that's Sullivan's viewpoint. However, I think you might be suprised at how many Religious or Spiritually Inclined people basically agree with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, it sounds nice and all - but it seems a little new-agey. It also sounds a lot like people inventing their own religion whenever they find things they don't like about the original one.

Don't get me wrong, I like yours (and Sullivan's) better... but it bears little similarity to what's in the bible. I'm not sure Christians are allowed to rewrite the fundamental rules as they see fit and still call themsleves Christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

This same complaint was leveled at Jesus. He was accused of breaking the rules. His response was that he did not come to abolish the Law but to Fullfill it. What are Christians to make of that statement in light of the fact that many of the old Jewish laws were dropped as Christianity developed. Eventually, Sacrifice of animals was no longer required. Circumcision was no longer required.

Once the Scriptures were laid down and cannonized they became fixed. So what changes? The scriptures don't change. The Truth they try to point to doesn't change. Christ doesn't change. What changes is our understanding of these things. And why shouldn't it change? Has not our understanding of everything else progessed in the past 2000 years? Why shouldn't our understanding of the Truth the scriptures try to point to progress? Why shouldn't our understanding of Christ progess?

I think the understanding you glean from reading the Bible depends on the Spirit in which you read it. It depends on the attitude you bring to the study. Your understanding is contingent on your perception of the world derived from modern thought.

As I read the Bible I find plenty of support for Sullivan's view. In fact, it's a little hard for me to understand how others don't. The way they throw Scripture around to justify their views just puzzles me. I don't see anything like what they Proclaim is implied by the Scriptures they quote. The best I can think of in response is to suggest they meditate on the core message of Jesus - the primacy of life lived in the spirit of love, compassion, and empathy. Then read it all again in that context and in that spirit. They might also take into account everything we've learned about the world in the past 2000 years. They might also take into account the cultural environment in which the Scriptures where written.

Just because the Church proclaimed that no more Scriptural revelation of Truth be accepted as cannonical does not mean that God stopped speaking to the hearts of Christians when the last book of the Bible was written. Nor when now entrenched hard hearted theologies were proclaimed. The Love of Christianity is infinite with infinite potential to soften hearts and increase their capacity for that Love. With greater love in the hearts of believers comes greater understanding of Christ, greater understanding of Scripture, and the Fullfillment of old hard hearted theologies by way of Christlike Love Filled ones of New Creation.

According to Christianity, Christ ushered in a New Age. So the New Age is nothing new to Christianity. It has been unfolding for 2000 years and is just as young today as it was then. That is the miracle of the Resurrection. It is a religion that is forever young.

PairTheBoard

[vhawk01]

Yeah, and look what happened to Jesus.