Poker 101: Maximizing value

[ajmargarine]

Villian might be a marginal winner. He doesn't make all the dumb preflop mistakes that fish/donks make. But, I wouldn't consider him a bright player at all.

1. Discuss the turn play. What are the advantages and disadvantages of checking the turn vs betting the turn.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.50/$1 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/)

SB: $41.15
BB: $260.55
UTG: $315.10
<font color="black"> Hero (MP): $100 </font>
CO: $108
BTN: $55.65

<font color="black"> Preflop: </font> Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $5, CO folds, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $4

<font color="black"> Flop: </font> ($11.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $11, UTG calls $11

<font color="black"> Turn: </font> ($33.50) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks...

[Xanta]

Checking the turn allows villain to complete his a draw (FD or maybe 56) on the river and pay you off.
Checking allows him to catch up and hit an overcard on the river.
Checking makes it look like you just cbet and gave up, making him more likely to bluff the river.

Checking loses value from 55-TT, JQ-AJ. That's the only real bad thing that I see about checking here.

I'd probably check here because people love to bluff into me when I cbet and then slow down. We're probably not getting 2 streets of value out of 55-88 anyways.

[zman31]

Well, villain limped UTG, indicating a likely pocket pair or maybe suited connector or Ax suited. His check call of your flop bet screams pocket pair, either he hit his FH or (monsters under the bed) quads or has a a small over pair.

By checking behind on the the turn when you hit your monster it gives it shows weakness and you might be able to get the rest of his stack on the river when he takes a stab with his 44 or 88 or calls your river push representing a scared 77 or something.

I like the check behind as you may fold those non FH hands of his that you could get more value from if were to bet the turn.

[orange]

there are a few reasons that checking the turn might be good:
-villan has 88 and is not likely to call a bet on the turn/river. checking the turn/betting the river might look more bluffy and encourage a call from those medium pairs.

-villan may interpret this check as weakness and bet the river himself. he also might have a hand like 56 that wont call a turn bet but may improve on the river when in reality, he's drawing dead on that turn.

however, i always bet here. too often will you see many players peel again with 77/88 whatever. they'll still call a turn bet with 56, a heart draw (if present) and you still build the pot vs. any 3. i think a $17 bet is nice here.

also, i wouldnt typically pot this flop. if villan is willng to call psb with much worse (and bet sizing doesnt matter), then potting is fine.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the turn allows villain to complete his a draw (FD or maybe 56) on the river and pay you off.


[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like more of a reason to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Checking loses value from 55-TT, JQ-AJ. That's the only real bad thing that I see about checking here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a prime reason to check.

[ QUOTE ]
We're probably not getting 2 streets of value out of 55-88 anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

O RLY?

[Gelford]

If you are a nit, then you need to check turn to extract the slightest value


If you are not, then bet and in anticipation of a C/R /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kaz2107]

i think this comes down to wut our image is to villian since he is sum what not retarted. if we 2 barrel alot and that kinda of stuff then a bet is sick good. but if we check behind with a lot of hands on the turn then we should prolly check behind here as well.

im betting this but i 2 barrel a lot and play reasonably aggro on the turn normally so i get raised a lot on the turn. other people dont nearly as much thus will b given WAY more credit for having a hand. i see him callin with n e reasonable draw he could have (which obv wont call a bet on the river when they miss), obv any 3, any boat, AJ, KJ, probably even QJ, and then possibly with a wide range of pps. i think given this range is so wide a bet is better then a check here. but as i said i think it depends a ton on ur image at the time

[Antinome]

A heart, 2, 5 or 7 could kill action from those medium PPs. I'd be inclined to bet an amount that a medium PP finds irresistable.

[Gelford]

Ahh ... Kaz, translating my more unfriendly post into errr english ???? /images/graemlins/grin.gif


But seriously, against regs this more or less depends on image.

[yellowbluebus]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian might be a marginal winner. He doesn't make all the dumb preflop mistakes that fish/donks make. But, I wouldn't consider him a bright player at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

Our villain limps UTG that is his first mistake and then calls a raise OOP. Is this a normal occurrence in SSNL games? I'd think players at these levels are a little bit more position aware. I am sure there will be exceptions.

Does our villain have a history with us? What is our image at the table and how do we think the villain perceives us?

My gut feeling (which may be affected if the above questions are addressed /images/graemlins/smile.gif) tells me to slowplay the turn for two reasons:

1. Induce a bluff
2. Allow villain to improve to the second best hand

[yellowbluebus]

[ QUOTE ]

But seriously, against regs this more or less depends on image.

[/ QUOTE ]

My feelings exactly.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh ... Kaz, translating my more unfriendly post into errr english ???? /images/graemlins/grin.gif


But seriously, against regs this more or less depends on image.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol yea i gotta help u not amaericans out sometimes. but i totally agree wit ur thinkin on this. so much meta game involved here

[Chomp]

I think our bet sizing is important here.

I think to get the most value out of his range, we must bet turn and river. If that means a modest vbet on each, then so be it. There will only be so much villain is willing to call with his range, so we need to be mindful of that IMO and not overdo it.

Throw in the facts that:
&gt; A certain %ge of the time we'll get raised (yummy)
&gt; Many cards will kill our action (so we want money in now)
&gt; Many cards will improve villain (so we want a bigger pot when this happens)

and I think vbet/vbet on turn/river is best in terms of maximising our EV.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian might be a marginal winner. He doesn't make all the dumb preflop mistakes that fish/donks make. But, I wouldn't consider him a bright player at all.

1. Discuss the turn play. What are the advantages and disadvantages of checking the turn vs betting the turn.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.50/$1 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/)

SB: $41.15
BB: $260.55
UTG: $315.10
<font color="black"> Hero (MP): $100 </font>
CO: $108
BTN: $55.65

<font color="black"> Preflop: </font> Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $5, CO folds, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $4

<font color="black"> Flop: </font> ($11.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $11, UTG calls $11

<font color="black"> Turn: </font> ($33.50) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Check is good. Makes it seem like you threw a cbet out there with AK and are just giving up. This could open up a thin value bet for villian on the river which you can raise.

Betting isn't that prudent because it is unlikely he has a big hand and he will fold to much of the time unless he has a monster which is really unlikely.

Check for deception and EV.

[Chomp]

AJ, your thoughts?

[corsakh]

Do we want to play here for stack or not? Do you want to extract value from draws?

If he has a marginal hand, after your checking behind on the turn he is likely to bet the river but folds to any heat anyway.

However, he still calls the turn with many hands and if his hand improves we get another street of value on the river.

Considering that I don't hit monsters too often, I prefer maximizing my chances to play for stacks when I do so I bet the turn all the time.

[Xanta]

AJ, I just got torn apart and I don't even see why.

OK, first point.
I suppose if villain is going to call 2 streets with a draw then betting&gt;checking here because we get value when he misses and wouldn't have bluffed the river had we checked, and it inflates the pot so that we can stack him easy on the river if he hits.

I really have no freakin clue how your second and third points make sense together.

Sometimes villain has a made hand, lets say 55-TT, and AJ-QJ if he decided to peel the flop with OCs. Some of those hands he'll call a bet on the turn and river with. Some hands he'll call one bet with, and he's more likely to call on the river if we check then on the turn.

Checking the turn loses value from the hands that would call 2 bets and gets value from his more marginal made hands.

If you really think that he'd call 2 streets with weak made hands like 55-88, it doesn't follow that you should check the turn.

Help plz.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking the turn allows villain to complete his a draw (FD or maybe 56) on the river and pay you off.


[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like more of a reason to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not given your read of a decent reg, he will not chase, so no AJ, while right against fish, with the read you have given us, this comment is meh.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking loses value from 55-TT, JQ-AJ. That's the only real bad thing that I see about checking here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a prime reason to check.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep agreed .... with your nitty self, he will give you credit if you bet here, but might pay of an 'induced' bluff on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're probably not getting 2 streets of value out of 55-88 anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

O RLY?

[/ QUOTE ]


Ya RLY !! .... err or not /images/graemlins/smile.gif



For you Xanta ... but keep in mind these answers would be all wrong it I sat in AJs seat, especially after bamboozling Party uNL'ers on my mad cow tilt the last couple of days, dunno if we have played tho /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Xanta]

Cheers, that makes sense.

The thought of him giving you credit for a hand if you fire again on the turn makes sense, decent reason to check and fire off a 3/4pot bet if he checks to you on the river. Didn't know AJ was a nit though.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't know AJ was a nit though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither do I, but I'm guessing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[citizenwind]

I think this is a clear check because of the stack sizes relative to the pot and your opponent's range. That is, if your opponent improves in any way and donks into you on the river, you'll likely stack him because he's likely getting right pot odds to call. You'll make more money stacking off a draw that comes in than the thin value you'll get from pocket pairs. And if he has something like A3s or pocket fours, you'll stack him on the river if he is slowplaying.

[kolotoure]

AJ = old
old = nit

[Acein8ter]

He called your PSB off the flop, so he likes his hand. I'd bet the turn for at least 1/2 pot. (He doesn't know that you have J's)

Since he originally called, then cold called your PFR, he could be holding 33 and got a really lucky flop. (Small chance, but we have all seen it...)

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
AJ, I just got torn apart and I don't even see why.

OK, first point.
I suppose if villain is going to call 2 streets with a draw then betting&gt;checking here because we get value when he misses and wouldn't have bluffed the river had we checked, and it inflates the pot so that we can stack him easy on the river if he hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was more of a general comment from me. In the OP hand there's not alot of draws possible. But, it's always better to bet if your made and he's drawing, rather than just hope he hits his draw on the river and get paid that way. (And I didn't intend my comments to be a rip on you, not at all, srry)

[ QUOTE ]


I really have no freakin clue how your second and third points make sense together.



[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say he's got 66. Totally reasonable hand for him to have. If I bet the turn, most mediocre players give you credit for a bigger overpair and fold at that point.

BUT, if you check behind, you flip your cards face up to him as AK, and now he thinks he's either got to bet a blank river, or call your river bet if he checks, because you obv don't have a hand or you would have bet the turn. Alot of villians think one street at a time.

So, the last comment from me above (O Rly) is saying you can get two streets of value from those hands, but you'll do it much more often by checking the turn. Given that he openlimped UTG and c/c'd a flop bet, his hand range is heavily weighted toward mid pp's, and that's what we need to try and get value from, and IMO the best way to do that is check the turn.

[Isura]

If his hand is a mid pair, then this is a bet IMO. The J is a card that is unlikely to have helped our hand, and there are many scare cards that can come on the river to kill our action. Also, he is less likely to bet a lot of rivers with a hand that wants showdown value, especially on the various scare cards. A or K is a good spot to check, but J is better to bet IMO. It is not like he is going to improve to a strong 2nd best hand on the river and then give us action, or bluff a missed draw on such a dry board.

Also, I don't like the flop bet size. I would bet less on the flop, and 1/2 pot the turn.

[LMAO]

general wisdom would be to bet here to build the pot, but having just potted the flop if you fire again, you could scare out alot of hands you beat...unless he has AA/KK. you didnt provide any stats, is he the type to c/r, to limp kk/AA utg...

I'd probably bet something like 18.00 or 20.00 here hoping for the min c/r or a call which would make it easier to get it in on the river.

[poon]

I think this is a good example of how posistion plays a role in ur descisions, I think this would be a clear bet if we were out of posistion, but since where in position we have the option to check, and bet/raise river, whereas if we were out of position, if we check we have to check 2 streets to get villan to bluff.

[avfletch]

*grunch*

I like a half pot bet here on the turn. It looks a lot like we're slowing down and may encourage action from the medium pockets plus the draws are almost always coming along (and hopefully completing) on the river.

Once we get to the river I'm almost certainly just shoving as by this point he's either calling a sensible bet or he's not and I don't think we maximise value with another line.

For me to check the turn I'd want the guy to be an habitual flop peeler who loves to attack rivers or if I had the nitiest image ever then it might be a good way to get another street of value out of medium pockets etc.

Overall I'm definitely in the bet unless you have a strong read camp.

Edit: Oops. Just checked OP again and noticed that there's not a lot of draws out there. I'll re-evaluate later /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Xanta]

Aha, that makes sense AJ. When I said 2 streets of value I wasn't including the flop, just looking at hands that would call turn and river bets.

What Isura said about the J being an innocuous card makes a lot of sense though. If I'm villain I can certainly fold 88 on a 334JQ but very rarely on a 334J.

[Pirelli]

You really want a big pot in this situation, and it's very unlikely you'll be able to get $84 in on the river if you don't bet. For that reason I think you should bet.

Assuming he has a small pocket pair, he probably wont bet the river and may not call a bet if the river card is above a Jack. He may, however, call a bet now. You probably aren't getting any more value out of this hand anyway. Betting also allows him to make a massive blunder by trying to take the pot away with a c/r.

If he has a draw you definitely want to bet, maybe make the bet smaller giving him good odds, $15 - $20. If he calls with a draw and hits it you stack him. If you don't bet, you may not depending on how he plays the river. If he completes a heart flush or straight and leads, he might fold to a raise although it is unlikely. He might also try a bluff if he misses the river. The main problem with checking is you get nothing when he misses and he will be less likely to bluff because he doesn't have as much invested.

If he has a big hand, QQ+ or 44 he wants to crai here, so you definitely want to bet. QQ+ makes no sense so far though so I doubt this is much of his range.

It also depends on how you normally play, if you are normally checking the turn, you have to keep your play consistent with monsters and air so they don't figure out what you're doing. Based on your read this probably doesn't matter much against this villain though.

[eigenvalue]

UTG has a stack of 315$, we have 100$. When this turn card appears, checking is no option. The only thing I have in mind here is the most likely line to stack Villain, nothing else matters any more. So, how can we do that. It seems that Villain liked his hand, otherwise he wouldn't have called our pot sized bet on the flop. So there is a reasonable chance we get the job done!

If we look at the preflop action, he limped UTG and then called our raise. His range will be a pair or a low suited ace. He is a weak player for sure because of his preflop betting pattern. It's not that unlikely that we can stack him, especially if he sits on A3. We have to bet.

I prefer to bet only 1/3 of the pot here for several reasons. It looks weak and invites Villain to reraise us, especially if he is sitting on A3 or A4 and hopes to trap us. If he wants to earn money from us, he will not like that small bet, it's an invitation from us to reraise. Depending on the size of his reraise, we can call it or reraise again. Reraising again is a good option if he likes to minraise, then we throw in a huge reraise, if he calls this, everyone will be pot committed, that's what we are looking for!

Let's assume he calls our small bet only. That's not good, but it leaves us still in a spot to stack him. Our bet looks weak and if he checks the river, we now have a second chance in throwing in a huge overbet. This confuses people a lot. Why are we betting so weak on the turn and now suddenly we throw in a huge overbet? That makes no sense at all. He might think that we try to take the pot from him with missed overcards. If he is weak enough, he has the chance to reraise our huge overbet all-in, especially if he has chosen to slowplay A3.

I think this betting line is better than everything else. If we continue to bet in a "normal" way, we might earn some money from him, maybe on the turn, maybe we earn another bet on the river. But showing some strength on 3 streets will not maximize our value with that hand in the long run. He will fold too often on the river and we never will stack him. Maximizing value in these spots means we have to find a betting line that gives us the best chance to stack him. Get rid of your normal betting patterns in these spots.

[ama0330]

I think that vs his range the most "valuable" line is check the turn and bet/raise the river. If villain has an overpair he'll probably call a river raise, and if he has 66 he probably wasn't calling anyway.

The most important thing here is balance - whatever you do on this board, you have to make sure you do the same with the opposite i.e. you have to be equally as likely to push the river as you are to check behind with air. So whether you check or bet doesnt really matter from a purely image perspective, as long as you do the same with the opposite from time to time.

IMPORTANT: I would take the check turn line here almost always because I believe that most villains at my level (50nl) do not pay enough attention for balance and image to be relevant. I think that check turn will yeild you most value in a vaccum.

[munkey]

I'm not sure what type of villan he is, but limp-calling OOP I'll assume his range is {Axs,SCs, 22-99, may be some broadway stuff}.

I would bet the flop less $8 -dry and paired villan likely missed. So he either has a smaller FH/PP or trips[A3], SC 2pair,str8 draw ,comboish draw or coldcalled with QQ+.

I can't really see checking here except vs. a regular occasionally. I'll bet this turn 1/2- 2/3 almost always, but I bet the turn quite often and check behind river alot[not here /images/graemlins/tongue.gif]

Vs 'strong' hands like trips/lower FH[I know set/set but we see it happen so often] we want to get the monies in on the river.

If he's drawing we want to charge him even though he's pretty much drawing dead.

If he was floating us, then for metagame it says even dryish flops I'll bet flop and turn [with potential river bet too] -he'll likely fold so doens;t know id we had FH/trips/overpair or double barrelling[though less liekly given your image I guess:p]

Disadvantages are board is pretty dry so connected hands are easy to define so villan may be able to read our hand a little easier.

Advantages to checking are balancing, when we do this with air/tp hands/draws -i.e. our somewhat weaker range.

As Aj's title says I think if:

value extracted vs his range by checking + value on other hands[metagame] &gt; value from betting vs his range here + metagame[as in he may be OOP 'floating' with a PP on paired flop].

I have a question, as I think I may misplay the rivr in t hese spots/be related to 2 streets of value idea.

Say I bet 1/2-2/3 turn and am check-called - river completes no draws does one shove or bet out like 1/2 river pot bet?

I ask this as I too often bet/bet/shove when being check-called [when vs ok villans] when betting river for 1/2 may be better -given if they had a felting hand we'll like;y already be AI by the turn.

[GtrHtr]

checking the turn lets you induce a bluff on the river. That and what orange said.

[VPIP100]

Does nobody like the weak bet on the turn?

It really combines a weak image and value in 1 move. Bet around 10, it re-opens the betting so he can try to push you off the hand (ofc you just call then, 3-betting is bad, DUCY)

If he folds, you wouldnt have gotten much out of him anyway.

If he just calls it is more likely he calls a bigger bet on the river than if you checked on the turn.

[VPIP100]

bump

[VPIP100]

bump2

[briancash]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I don't like the flop bet size. I would bet less on the flop, and 1/2 pot the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

on any non over card.

[Margin Of Error]

1/3rd or 1/2 pot on turn is DUCY.