50nl: KK 3bet pot 4way

[barryc83]

Original raiser is a nit, other two are donks. Whats your action and why?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($48.25)
MP ($45.40)
CO ($25.35)
Button ($52.40)
SB ($31.80)
Hero ($55.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $11</font>, UTG calls $9, CO calls $9, Button calls $9.

Flop: ($44.25) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero ???

[theflyingcow]

This is such a dry board that I think a bet of $15-20 would take it down. I'm leaning towards betting $20 since one of the players behind us might try and raise to make a play into such a huge pot. Pocket pairs that didn't set would find it very hard to call here (unless it was AA/QQ) and would typically get out of the way. Checking is bad because we can be reasonably certain that someone called with an A and I'd hate to see that card come on the board. I could also see an argument for just open-shoving, but there I feel like the only hands that could really call that you beat are AJ, QQ.

[jmgambler]

LOL, you got 4 callers with that raise? Jeez, this happens so rarely, I am kinda at a loss here too, button I guess calls because he is getting 4-1 and he is in position.
I guess the only hand I am afraid of here is JJ, With such an uncoordinated Flop, I would bet half pot say $25, there are no draws to speak of, so anyone calling save for AJ maybe has hit their Set, but then can we fold with only $15 left behind us? into such a big pot. .... mmmmmm kinda lost here (and not ashamed to admit it).

Given that I would have to call an AI if I was pushed, I would go AI, now

I dont want to give a card here.... If someone has limped with AA so be it, but like Im say JJ is the only thing I am scared of here

[barryc83]

Um, I guess I forgot to mention that my image was bad earlier, but it had been like 2 orbits since I'd raised, maybe they had long memories.

[VegasNick]

wow thats alot of callers..but i say a 20-25$ bet is right here

[Brian O'Nolan]

I open shove here... it's fairly obvious that you'll be putting your whole stack in if you bet like half-pot. Anyone who came along with a J is going to call AI if they'll call half pot... you might get a call from TT-77 or something by button if everyone else folds too.

[catfish_01]

Well with a multiway re-raised pot, the chances of winning aren't exactly going to be as high as heads up (though your share of equity multiway even here should be substantial), but I would find that this is a flop that merits an attempt to get all-in.

I like a bet of about $20 here even though I normally don't bet less than 2/3 of the pot on a flop. It actually kind of entices a raise: people go berserk in big pots and I would want to take the initiative and tempt other action here. That amount puts the CO in and also means a min-raise by anyone else is basically all-in.

[Jouster777]

I might go for a CRAI here...decent chance someone will bet with UTG being most likely thereby trapping any callers' money. Pretty safe to give a card here if it gets checked through.

[jmgambler]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty safe to give a card here if it gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?, I put at least 2 of these players on pairs say 77/88/99 the other/s maybe an AJs/ATs... I am 1st to act, why would I want to give a free card? ANY card (save for a K) is going to threaten our hand IMHO.

Push out the medium pairs NOW

[molotom]

Certainly you want to get it all in given how much you have behind.

I like a CRAI here, it's pretty much guaranteed someone is going to bet. A weak lead works well too, when you do this it seems like there is always a genius with AK waiting to shove with their nut high cardz. If you make a $15-20 bet, people just won't want to fold to such a tiny bet in a 3-bet multiway pot,and someone is likely to just say 'f---it' and shove.

I don't think an open-shove does any good, you just fold out more worse hands. Trying to push out 77-88 here is crazy, you want them in. You can't be afraid of someone drawing to a 2-outer when there's a 90% chance its going to be all-in on the flop anyway.

[inverted]

push, if you check your going to call any bet. If you bet anything between 15-25 your probably going to shove the turn anyway so why not push now?

[Pirelli]

The pot is huge, don't get tricky trying to maximise value by betting small or checking or anything like that. Just push for a few reasons.

Everyone else wants to win that pot too, if they hit any piece, they will call. If they have 77 - TT they might put you on AK and call. You just don't know.

Also, you WANT to take this pot down, it's huge. Anyone who can call a $20 bet can call a push.

[BallinPro]

In that situation you should bet about 25 to 35 dollars

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty safe to give a card here if it gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]In the unlikely event it gets checked through, its a dry flop that is not likely to have hit anyone so villains are not likely to improve &gt;KK with one more card.


[ QUOTE ]
Push out the medium pairs NOW

[/ QUOTE ]Why would you think that?

[inverted]

On second thoughts checking might be the best option. You can then fold if the play goes bet raise. I still can't see a bet of 20-25 being an option as you will be pot committed.

[BevillTheDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is huge, don't get tricky trying to maximise value by betting small or checking or anything like that. Just push for a few reasons.

Everyone else wants to win that pot too, if they hit any piece, they will call. If they have 77 - TT they might put you on AK and call. You just don't know.

Also, you WANT to take this pot down, it's huge. Anyone who can call a $20 bet can call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeap

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I might go for a CRAI here...decent chance someone will bet with UTG being most likely thereby trapping any callers' money. Pretty safe to give a card here if it gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I like checking too. And if the action gets heavy you can dump it. With 3 callers and a dry board, I think slowing down and seeing what happens is better than just blindly putting our stack in. If its' just one bet to me then I definitely get it in.

[ama0330]

I b3bai here given that we have almost no room to move in a pot this big. Or crai or whatever, but Ill throw 100bb at this without much hesitation.

[Kimo White Devil]

*grunch

it looks like a mine-field full fo set-miners. They either hit and gonna make you pay of you gonna fold. pot is huge at 44$ and you have exaclty that money left. No fear, bet anything/call a push. I play that because they fold the missed set, and i cant check a 3-bet preflop on a flop because then i wont be able to use 3-bet down the road profitably (3-bet light, 3-bet AK, missed flop play it like a big pair, etc).

[Kimo White Devil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I might go for a CRAI here...decent chance someone will bet with UTG being most likely thereby trapping any callers' money. Pretty safe to give a card here if it gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I like checking too. And if the action gets heavy you can dump it. With 3 callers and a dry board, I think slowing down and seeing what happens is better than just blindly putting our stack in. If its' just one bet to me then I definitely get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont you think Check/raise all in one bettor is good image next time you 3-bet and c-bet? Am I giving too much credit to people?

[catfish_01]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I like checking too. And if the action gets heavy you can dump it. With 3 callers and a dry board, I think slowing down and seeing what happens is better than just blindly putting our stack in. If its' just one bet to me then I definitely get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even on a dry board, opps seem to go into a frenzy in big pots. With a hand like KK you have to keep in mind that you won't win at showdown as much as HU but to fold this hand on this board even against several opponetns seems to be a mistake to me. If you check, you should plan to get it in no matter what happens.

Again this is for two reasons: because people seem to think their marginal hands are good here more often than in smaller pots (and I have seen opps get it in with OC's here, let alone the PP's you beat.)

Also note how there is a shortstack to act behind you? Can't you easily see him pushing for 1/2 the pot and someone min raising him? That equals heavy action because 2 other opponents put their stack in. Would it be worth folding to that?

Edit: To think otherwise makes me wonder, what flop would you like to see here to continue? I don't like turning Kings into a set-or-fold hand, especially since an opp with Aces would've most likely went ahead and pushed preflop. There is no Ace on the board even!

[Gullanian]

I push all in here for sure. A $40 pot is good enough for your kings, be happy with it. Your playing with fire if you don't shut it down now.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch

it looks like a mine-field full fo set-miners. They either hit and gonna make you pay of you gonna fold. pot is huge at 44$ and you have exaclty that money left. No fear, bet anything/call a push. I play that because they fold the missed set, and i cant check a 3-bet preflop on a flop because then i wont be able to use 3-bet down the road profitably (3-bet light, 3-bet AK, missed flop play it like a big pair, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. It seems that you are saying that betting gets all worst hands to fold, and gets us stacked by a set. In that case, why not check and try to either induce a bluff from someone trying to be heroic, and also disguise our hand strength. Secondly, you DON'T have to bet this flop to keep your credibility in future 3-bet pots. 3 people called the reraise, so c-betting here with like AK would be a pretty bad play.

[Kimo White Devil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch

it looks like a mine-field full fo set-miners. They either hit and gonna make you pay of you gonna fold. pot is huge at 44$ and you have exaclty that money left. No fear, bet anything/call a push. I play that because they fold the missed set, and i cant check a 3-bet preflop on a flop because then i wont be able to use 3-bet down the road profitably (3-bet light, 3-bet AK, missed flop play it like a big pair, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. It seems that you are saying that betting gets all worst hands to fold, and gets us stacked by a set. In that case, why not check and try to either induce a bluff from someone trying to be heroic, and also disguise our hand strength. Secondly, you DON'T have to bet this flop to keep your credibility in future 3-bet pots. 3 people called the reraise, so c-betting here with like AK would be a pretty bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply, It makes way more sense than my reply after thoughts, im still a newb after all...

ok so you CRAI one bettor and fold if 2 poeple like this flop?

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

ok so you CRAI one bettor and fold if 2 poeple like this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the tight player bets, and someone calls (or raises), then I think I can fold it. But if donkey 1 bets, and donkey 2 calls, I'm very tempted to take my chances against those two. Against a bet from either donkey, I would go all-in. The tough one is when UTG bets (betting into 3 people), and the others fold.

[VPIP100]

Start spel 1399334920.

jsb9 is zitplaats 0 met $110,65.
WOOLCAN70 is zitplaats 1 met $127,05.
Mttjn is zitplaats 2 met $112,25.
HooG is zitplaats 3 met $63.
Erl000 is zitplaats 4 met $315,14.
NANI2007 is zitplaats 5 met $100.

De dealer is zitplaats 2.

HooG plaatst een blind van $,50.
Erl000 plaatst een blind van $1.

(Mttjn krijgt Ac Kc.)

Pre-flop:
NANI2007 folds.
jsb9 folds.
WOOLCAN70 calls voor $1.
Mttjn raises $4.
HooG folds.
Erl000 calls voor $4.
WOOLCAN70 raises $8.
Mttjn raises $27.
Erl000 folds.
WOOLCAN70 calls voor $27.

De flop is
Kd 10c 4d.

WOOLCAN70 checks.
Mttjn zet $65 in.
WOOLCAN70 gaat all-in voor $87,05.
Mttjn gaat all-in voor $7,25.
$14,80 is terug gegeven aan WOOLCAN70.

Onthulling:

WOOLCAN70 toont
Qd Qh Kd 10c 4d
Eén paar Vrouwen

Mttjn toont
Kd Kc Ac 10c 4d
Eén paar Heren

De turn is Ah.
De river is Qs.

Mttjn:
Ah Ac Kd Kc Qs
Twee Paar, Azen en Heren

WOOLCAN70:
Qs Qd Qh Ah Kd
Drie Vrouwen

WOOLCAN70 wint de pot van ($227).

I finally sat down at the table, donkey was raising, 3-betting everything, getting it all in with KQs etc preflop. I got exactly what I wanted and then this.. He instaleft and thus permatilt me.

[censored] live.

[ADK]

lol @ the amount of callers. I'm just shoving here and taking down the pot.

[barryc83]

Well I ended up open pushing for a psb and they all folded. The only hand that beats me is if the nit has JJ. I strongly debated c/ring here but thought it might be better to push and have the donks call with smaller pps. fwiw I dont think either of the donks fold JT there.

[tiger_hall]

i would not be putting my whole stack in the middle on the flop... by doing this i am letting my opponents know that i am strong... betting $20 seems like a better bet to me as this allows opponents to have a bluff at this big pot...and shoving the turn....

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I ended up open pushing for a psb and they all folded. The only hand that beats me is if the nit has JJ. I strongly debated c/ring here but thought it might be better to push and have the donks call with smaller pps. fwiw I dont think either of the donks fold JT there.

[/ QUOTE ]
im doin tha EXACT same.