NL25: JTs flops GSSFD

[Jurrr]

No reads, just sat down, but it's Party so they are probably bad.

Hero ($54.85)
SB ($35.68)
BB ($25)
UTG ($26.50)
MP ($25)
CO ($24.17)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP (poster) raises to $0.8</font>, CO calls $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.75) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, Hero...

Call, raise or shove?

[Jouster777]

Multiway, in position, with underbetting going on - I like a call here. If MP pushes you have to call but you really aren't worse off than pushing yourself because he's not doing that with a hand he will fold to a push. If MP just calls you are getting awesome odds. Pretty unlikely someone has a higher FD here but its a (small) risk of the call.

[Better Than U]

[ QUOTE ]
but its a (small) risk of the call.

[/ QUOTE ]another risk is announcing your hand by just calling. I'm unsure of what to do here so I'd like to see more responses.

[Manchild84]

I'd just call... doesn't look like you're going to get them to fold, so pushing is out of the question, and if you raise, there's a good chance you get pushed, cutting away all your implied odds.
Could also make an argument for folding, since it looks like you might be up against something like AXc, so you're flush might not be good.

[Better Than U]

Implied odds? There's a very good chance he has the most equity in this pot right now between the 3 players. Pushing isn't terrible even with no FE. I don't think it's good either, though. I don't think folding is a terrible idea either.

[thac]

Better Than U - folding is horrible here. Sure you may not get action if a club hits, but when a K hits the turn and villain has KQ and Ax, we're getting a decent amount of chips. I don't see the original flop bettor raising here, so I usually call here.

Even if the clubs hit, villains are a lot likely to pay off at least one bet because they usually fall in love with their one pairs.

[CesareBorgia]

I think I would call. If MP re-raises you can still decide to shove. An advantage of seeing the turn for 'only' $4 allows you to throw away your hand if, on the turn, a blank comes and the betting is heavy.

[Jurrr]

I actually shoved, that was not so good as there wasn't enough overlay I think; MP folded, CO had AQ, negative EV- shove in this case; I had 40% equity.

I don't mind getting it all in IF they both come along. Calling accomplishes that more likely as MP can reraise. Shoving is only good if I believe I have FE.

Thanks, everyone!

[IJackit]

[ QUOTE ]
Shoving is only good if I believe I have FE.

Thanks, everyone!

[/ QUOTE ]

You nailed it here. You FE IS where you make the money in this situation.

[Isura]

Interesting spot, made me think for a while. Question for you guys: do you play A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif any differently? I'm still not sure what is best with either hand.

[thac]

I'm more apt to raise with A5/images/graemlins/club.gif because I know I won't get called by a higher flush draw, that's the only thing that makes me hesitant to raise here.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm more apt to raise with A5/images/graemlins/club.gif because I know I won't get called by a higher flush draw, that's the only thing that makes me hesitant to raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, you don't want smaller FDs to fold.

[LuckyLuk_13]

I would call here. We have a very decent hand 3way. Folding seems weak. Im not shoving because of the action. We might be against a made hand (I dont think we have a lot of FOld equity). I call to see the turn. We also have position for the rest of the hand. Makes it easier to play.

[ama0330]

I doubt we have a significant equity edge in this pot, and I also doubt that we have any FE. For this reason, I don't like a raise/shove. What IS good here is that MP is likely to call behind us, so I think that a call is okay here, given that our implieds are looking pretty nice.

[TheRenaissance]

Tricky spot.

Our implied odds with the flushdraw in this spot does not seem good at first sight. However, I do not think shoving is a better alternative, as we would too often be behind when called. And the action so far suggests we are up against a strong hand.

The reason I think calling is best is that we dont need implied odds to call - assuming that MP just calls the minraise. Technically, it will be hard to make a mistake, as we will have position, and it will be easy for us to determine if we want to put more money in on the turn if we dont improve.

When we do improve, I think we have a more than a fair chance of getting a bet or two out of our opponents, simply because of the strength they have shown so far. And if they wont pay us, then that is ok too, since we havent paid too much to get here.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm more apt to raise with A5/images/graemlins/club.gif because I know I won't get called by a higher flush draw, that's the only thing that makes me hesitant to raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, you don't want smaller FDs to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting.. you're making me contemplate this hand more. I am leaning more towards a call with A5s and raising especially hard if I hit my 5 (small raises with a club turn probably)

[Jurrr]

If CO has set or 2pr then the turn 5 would only give you something like 2 more outs with A5/images/graemlins/club.gif.