Pope John Paul II Miracle

[Bigdaddydvo]

A French Nun attributes her cure of Parkinson's disease to the late Pontiff. Especially interesting since Parkinson's is a degenerative nerve disease that shouldn't simply disappear. Also of note is that John Paul II suffered from this disease in his later years.

Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070330/wl_afp/vaticanpopenunfrance)


As always, I'm curious for commentary from the faithful and skeptics alike.

BDD

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
A French Nun attributes her cure of Parkinson's disease to the late Pontiff. Especially interesting since Parkinson's is a degenerative nerve disease that shouldn't simply disappear. Also of note is that John Paul II suffered from this disease in his later years.

Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070330/wl_afp/vaticanpopenunfrance)


As always, I'm curious for commentary from the faithful and skeptics alike.

BDD

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm convinced. Praise the Lord!

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
"I was 17 when John Paul became pope -- in a way he was my pope. I felt as if I had lost a friend

Convincing evidence of a miracle -- usually a medical cure with no scientific explanation -- is essential in the beatification process, the first step to sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gee, you think she's an advocate for John Paul II's sainthood? No alterior motive there, eh?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I was 17 when John Paul became pope -- in a way he was my pope. I felt as if I had lost a friend

Convincing evidence of a miracle -- usually a medical cure with no scientific explanation -- is essential in the beatification process, the first step to sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gee, you think she's an advocate for John Paul II's sainthood? No alterior motive there, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course she advocates his Sainthood. But I doubt all the motivation in the world can make someone cure themselves of Parkinson's Disease.

[Sephus]

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As always, I'm curious for commentary from the faithful and skeptics alike

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm betting the faithful have faith and the skeptics are skeptical.

[RoundGuy]

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But I doubt all the motivation in the world can make someone cure themselves of Parkinson's Disease.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously. However, this "miracle" is based on two rather important assumptions: a) that she actually had Parkinson's, and b) that she is indeed cured. Neither of which I can be convinced of simply by reading this article. I'd like to see the interview with the "astonished" neurologist, and read the findings of the Vatican inquiry.

[Johnny Drama]

if JP2's so great, why couldn't he cure his own Parkinson's?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
if JP2's so great, why couldn't he cure his own Parkinson's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question bears an eerie similarity to the taunts of the chief priests and scribes received by Jesus on the cross "He saved others but he can't save himself" (Mark 15:31)

[Bigdaddydvo]

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[ QUOTE ]
But I doubt all the motivation in the world can make someone cure themselves of Parkinson's Disease.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously. However, this "miracle" is based on two rather important assumptions: a) that she actually had Parkinson's, and b) that she is indeed cured. Neither of which I can be convinced of simply by reading this article. I'd like to see the interview with the "astonished" neurologist, and read the findings of the Vatican inquiry.

[/ QUOTE ]

All fair points, and I'd love read the inquiry as well.

The Church conducts a notoriously rigorous investigation of possible miracles and enters each investigation with the presumption that a miracle didn't happen. Thinking to statistics, the Church will much soon commit a Type I error (stating no miracle took place when one occurred) rather than a Type II error (proclaiming an event to be a miracle that turns out to be fraudulant).

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if JP2's so great, why couldn't he cure his own Parkinson's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question bears an eerie similarity to the taunts of the chief priests and scribes received by Jesus on the cross "He saved others but he can't save himself" (Mark 15:31)

[/ QUOTE ]

So this miracle is fake just like Jesus?

[Peter666]

Unfortunately, in 1983, JP II streamlined the process of canonization to a such a degree that we must question the authenticity of the current process.

One glaring error is the "canonization" of Fr. Escriva, founder of Opus Dei, who preached false ecumenism.
Another is the canonization of Sr. Faustina. While I don't know of the personal sanctity of this woman, her "writings" and the devotion it inspired were definitely condemned by the Catholic Church before JP II.

I would love to be the Devil's advocate in JP II's beatification process, but unfortunately he eliminated that position.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if JP2's so great, why couldn't he cure his own Parkinson's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question bears an eerie similarity to the taunts of the chief priests and scribes received by Jesus on the cross "He saved others but he can't save himself" (Mark 15:31)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, its similar to that, and to a whole bunch of other people too. Most of them were right, and the guy was just a fraud. You aren't suggesting that the chief priests error demonstrates that the question is erroneous, are you?

"People laughed at Galileo, and he was right, therefore my 3-in-1 Brain-protecting/Thought-magnifying/Bacon-crisping Helmet of Glory is clearly the greatest invention of all time!"

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously. However, this "miracle" is based on two rather important assumptions: a) that she actually had Parkinson's, and b) that she is indeed cured. Neither of which I can be convinced of simply by reading this article. I'd like to see the interview with the "astonished" neurologist, and read the findings of the Vatican inquiry.


[/ QUOTE ]
If her Parkinson's comes back, will the Pope's sainthood be revoked?

[Duke]

I don't like the word skepticism in this context, as it seems to imply that there is some grain of potential truth that is being scrutinized.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking to statistics, the Church will much soon commit a Type I error (stating no miracle took place when one occurred) rather than a Type II error (proclaiming an event to be a miracle that turns out to be fraudulant).

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a much more relevant point if, say, miracles actually existed.

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]


The Church conducts a notoriously rigorous investigation of possible miracles and enters each investigation with the presumption that a miracle didn't happen. Thinking to statistics, the Church will much soon commit a Type I error (stating no miracle took place when one occurred) rather than a Type II error (proclaiming an event to be a miracle that turns out to be fraudulant).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be pithy but how rigorous can an investigation into medical facts be if the organization doing the investigation believes the earth is 6000 years old.

[yukoncpa]

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Not to be pithy but how rigorous can an investigation into medical facts be if the organization doing the investigation believes the earth is 6000 years old.

Post Extras



[/ QUOTE ]
Catholics believe in evolution, the big bang, etc.. They are less nutty then their protestant counterparts. ( I'm not even sure that all protestants believe in a young earth)

[Wubbie075]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if JP2's so great, why couldn't he cure his own Parkinson's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question bears an eerie similarity to the taunts of the chief priests and scribes received by Jesus on the cross "He saved others but he can't save himself" (Mark 15:31)

[/ QUOTE ]

Also eerily similar to the age old question.. "If psychics can see the future why don't they play the lottery?"

[Bigdaddydvo]

In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.

In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case. I will leave it to the inquiry to conclude as to whether or not this nun's cure was miraculous or not. As I've said, Parkinson's disease is a degenerative nerve condition that, unlike some instances with cancer, does not simply fix itself or go into remission.

For those convinced that #2 is a certainty, consider the irreparable damage done to the Church if it is found to have faked a miracle. This is an intolerable risk given the number of people that must be involved, namely all of the nun's doctors, all of her fellow sisters, and not to mention the nun herself. A deliberate fake, given the circumstances, is unlikely for simply being too risky. Also to be considered is the grave sin against its own teachings that the Church would commit should it decide to fake a miracle.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.

In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case. I will leave it to the inquiry to conclude as to whether or not this nun's cure was miraculous or not. As I've said, Parkinson's disease is a degenerative nerve condition that, unlike some instances with cancer, does not simply fix itself or go into remission.

For those convinced that #2 is a certainty, consider the irreparable damage done to the Church if it is found to have faked a miracle. This is an intolerable risk given the number of people that must be involved, namely all of the nun's doctors, all of her fellow sisters, and not to mention the nun herself. A deliberate fake, given the circumstances, is unlikely for simply being too risky. Also to be considered is the grave sin against its own teachings that the Church would commit should it decide to fake a miracle.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if #4 is found to be the case, think of the irreparable damage to the church once people know the Pope has power to cure diseases but uses it only for one random case of Parkinson's.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.

In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case. I will leave it to the inquiry to conclude as to whether or not this nun's cure was miraculous or not. As I've said, Parkinson's disease is a degenerative nerve condition that, unlike some instances with cancer, does not simply fix itself or go into remission.

For those convinced that #2 is a certainty, consider the irreparable damage done to the Church if it is found to have faked a miracle. This is an intolerable risk given the number of people that must be involved, namely all of the nun's doctors, all of her fellow sisters, and not to mention the nun herself. A deliberate fake, given the circumstances, is unlikely for simply being too risky. Also to be considered is the grave sin against its own teachings that the Church would commit should it decide to fake a miracle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could very well be #3 also. That would be my choice, until we know more it has gone in remission, a phenomena not exclusively associated with believers! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
A French Nun attributes her cure of Parkinson's disease to the late Pontiff. Especially interesting since Parkinson's is a degenerative nerve disease that shouldn't simply disappear. Also of note is that John Paul II suffered from this disease in his later years.

Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070330/wl_afp/vaticanpopenunfrance)


As always, I'm curious for commentary from the faithful and skeptics alike.

BDD

[/ QUOTE ]

the whole process is a logical joke- they take an event which by their own definition has no rational explanation and then they try to ascribe to it an explanation. How are you supposed to react to this statement "we have no idea why her Parkinson's went away, therefore it was the work of a guy who died several months ago". Unless they are doing rigorous breakdowns of unlikely events and showing that a statistically significant larger number occurred among people who prayed shortly after JPII's death its a meaningless process.
Seriously, out of hundreds of millions of Catholics, how many unexplained events would you expect to occur over a year long period?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.

In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case. I will leave it to the inquiry to conclude as to whether or not this nun's cure was miraculous or not. As I've said, Parkinson's disease is a degenerative nerve condition that, unlike some instances with cancer, does not simply fix itself or go into remission.

For those convinced that #2 is a certainty, consider the irreparable damage done to the Church if it is found to have faked a miracle. This is an intolerable risk given the number of people that must be involved, namely all of the nun's doctors, all of her fellow sisters, and not to mention the nun herself. A deliberate fake, given the circumstances, is unlikely for simply being too risky. Also to be considered is the grave sin against its own teachings that the Church would commit should it decide to fake a miracle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could very well be #3 also. That would be my choice, until we know more it has gone in remission, a phenomena not exclusively associated with believers! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mid /images/graemlins/smile.gif,

Yes, #3 is certainly a possibility, but for the following reasons I'd argue it's a significant underdog to be so. I make the case with the assumption that what the nun says she believes to be true:

1) I'm unfamiliar with cases of Parkinson's Disease going into remission, as it wreaks irreparable damage on the nervous system.

2) She felt immediate relief following sincere prayers to the late Holy Father.

3) JP II himself suffered from Parkinson's.

Now we're all familiar enough to with statistics to know that it is possible to lose a dozen consecutive hands to runner runner quads. However, for these aspects of the case to match up exactly is extraordinary, to say the least.

Hence I argue that #1 or #4 are the likliest of options.

Another possibility is an offshoot of #3: That her prayers induced a psychological state where her body was able to heal itself. Again, I think this one is an underdog, but I'll throw it out here nonetheless.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]


1) I'm unfamiliar with cases of Parkinson's Disease going into remission, as it wreaks irreparable damage on the nervous system.

2) She felt immediate relief following sincere prayers to the late Holy Father.

3) JP II himself suffered from Parkinson's.

Now we're all familiar enough to with statistics to know that it is possible to lose a dozen consecutive hands to runner runner quads. However, for these aspects of the case to match up exactly is extraordinary, to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are approximately 1.1 billion catholics in the world. A quick google search shows that in the US Parkinson's has a diagnosed prevalence of around 0.37%, or 1 million people. So you would expect that some 3-5 million Catholics in the world to have Parkinson's, and those people being A. Religious and B. ill are probably going to be extremely likely to pray for relief/help. Add into this that the Pope was shot and died of Influenza means that there are probably several million more people who 1. were catholic, 2. prayed, and 3. suffered from an ailment that PJII suffered from a some point in his life.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
And if #4 is found to be the case, think of the irreparable damage to the church once people know the Pope has power to cure diseases but uses it only for one random case of Parkinson's.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, why are all these new miracles for such paltry matters? What happened to the good old days where God struck down all the male children of Egypt? Where he would destroy entire cities because it’s inhabitants committed sodomy, where he would destroy a city because one drunk peed on a holy wall.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


1) I'm unfamiliar with cases of Parkinson's Disease going into remission, as it wreaks irreparable damage on the nervous system.

2) She felt immediate relief following sincere prayers to the late Holy Father.

3) JP II himself suffered from Parkinson's.

Now we're all familiar enough to with statistics to know that it is possible to lose a dozen consecutive hands to runner runner quads. However, for these aspects of the case to match up exactly is extraordinary, to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are approximately 1.1 billion catholics in the world. A quick google search shows that in the US Parkinson's has a diagnosed prevalence of around 0.37%, or 1 million people. So you would expect that some 3-5 million Catholics in the world to have Parkinson's, and those people being A. Religious and B. ill are probably going to be extremely likely to pray for relief/help. Add into this that the Pope was shot and died of Influenza means that there are probably several million more people who 1. were catholic, 2. prayed, and 3. suffered from an ailment that PJII suffered from a some point in his life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.


[/ QUOTE ]

5) The nun was misdiagnosed as having Parkinson's. Her body naturally healed whatever ailment she actually had.

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just saying that it's another possibility -- and one that I'm much more inclined to believe than 'popedidit'.

Edit: And in doing a quick search on wikipedia, I discovered this little tidbit:

[ QUOTE ]
Diagnosis

18F PET scan shows decreased dopamine activity in the basal ganglia, a pattern which aids in diagnosing Parkinson's disease. There are currently no blood or laboratory tests that have been proven to help in diagnosing PD. Therefore the diagnosis is based on medical history and a neurological examination. The disease can be difficult to diagnose accurately. The Unified Parkinson's Disease Rating Scale is the primary clinical tool used to assist in diagnosis and determine severity of PD. Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.[10] Early signs and symptoms of PD may sometimes be dismissed as the effects of normal aging. The physician may need to observe the person for some time until it is apparent that the symptoms are consistently present. Usually doctors look for shuffling of feet and lack of swing in the arms. Doctors may sometimes request brain scans or laboratory tests in order to rule out other diseases. However, CT and MRI brain scans of people with PD usually appear normal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Misdiagnosis FTW.

[Hopey]

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Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless she never had it in the first place.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless she never had it in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I readily recognize this as a possibility. To quote myself from earlier in the thread:

[ QUOTE ]
1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless she never had it in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I readily recognize this as a possibility. To quote myself from earlier in the thread:

[ QUOTE ]
1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, since Parkinson's is a very hard disease to diagnose properly, and since her symptoms seem to have disappeared, it is impossible for your scenario to play itself out properly. The only way that a definitive diagnosis could have been made is if the nun had died and a post-mortem examination was performed on her brain. Of course, had she died from the disease, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as there would not have been a "miracle" to discuss. It's a very nice catch-22.

That being said, I'm sure the church will go through the motions of "investigating" her claims, and will inevitably canonize the pope based partly on this "miracle". The vast majority of Roman Catholics will assume that the church is beyond reproach in these matters and will buy into the story hook, line, and sinker.

[AWoodside]

[ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm... it seems like it would be difficult to show a case of a disease going into remission if whenever it ostensibly does so we credit dead popes instead...

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it obviously does! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[andyfox]

"In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case."

They want to make the rock star a saint. They need a miracle to do so. They'll find one.

[samjjones]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/241723~Michael-J-Fox-Posters.jpg

<font size=4>WHAT ABOUT ME???</font>

[slickpoppa]

Possibility #6: There was a miracle but it was performed by someone else and/or some other god. Somehow I don't think the church will reach this conclusion.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/241723~Michael-J-Fox-Posters.jpg

&lt;font size=4&gt;WHAT ABOUT ME???&lt;/font&gt;

[/ QUOTE ]

If he gives up his stem cell crusade (destroying living human embryos is somewhat frowned upon by the Church) and prays with a sincere heart for a healing, hey, anything is possible.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
If he gives up his stem cell crusade (destroying living human embryos is somewhat frowned upon by the Church) and prays with a sincere heart for a healing, hey, anything is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

so the church is deciding who gets healed?

[oe39]

what do people think about a potential saint fantasy league?

miracles could be just one of 6 categories. maybe nobel peace prizes, total bases as a negative category, visions, some kind of veneration average?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Especially interesting since Parkinson's is a degenerative nerve disease that shouldn't simply disappear. Also of note is that John Paul II suffered from this disease in his later years. </font>

Especially interesting since don't they need just such a miracle to make him a saint?

[joes28]

wow, so the pope/god cured one of his very close friends who may or may not have actually had parkinsons. What an awesome miracle. Think of how great of a miracle it would be if we researched stem cells extensively and cured millions of this disease and others.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/241723~Michael-J-Fox-Posters.jpg

&lt;font size=4&gt;WHAT ABOUT ME???&lt;/font&gt;

[/ QUOTE ]

If he gives up his stem cell crusade (destroying living human embryos is somewhat frowned upon by the Church) and prays with a sincere heart for a healing, hey, anything is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he has an ounce of sense he'll stick with the stem cell crusade, since his chances are much better there

[David Sklansky]

I believe that the subject matter of your original post opens up a can of worms that puts the Catholic religion in a particularly bad light. Logically speaking.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the subject matter of your original post opens up a can of worms that puts the Catholic religion in a particularly bad light. Logically speaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

Last Sunday we Catholics celebrated the resurrection of Jesus Christ. From a clinically detached and logical perspective, I think the healing of a nun through the intersesion of a deceased pontiff significantly pales in comparison. From the perspective of Faith, however, the resurrection (and to a lesser extent the nun's healing) make perfect sense.

[Zeno]

From the linked article:

[ QUOTE ]
The 46-year-old nun was holding her first news conference since the Vatican revealed that her testimony could provide evidence of a posthumous miracle performed by John Paul II after his death.



Convincing evidence of a miracle -- usually a medical cure with no scientific explanation -- is essential in the beatification process, the first step to sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church.


[/ QUOTE ]

The polythestic Romans were worthy people.

Catholics are a quasi-menace now that other idiocies have taken precedence.

Churches, organized or disorganized, are inimical to civilization.

And John Paul II was a quack, a charlatan, and a first-rate demagogue.

Le Misanthrope

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the subject matter of your original post opens up a can of worms that puts the Catholic religion in a particularly bad light. Logically speaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

Last Sunday we Catholics celebrated the resurrection of Jesus Christ. From a clinically detached and logical perspective, I think the healing of a nun through the intersesion of a deceased pontiff significantly pales in comparison. From the perspective of Faith, however, the resurrection (and to a lesser extent the nun's healing) make perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Forgetting the resurrection of christ for which there is no evidence, catholicism errs when it says, if science cannot explain it (now), then it must be a miracle.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
"In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case."

They want to make the rock star a saint. They need a miracle to do so. They'll find one.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

FWIW I found this on a website about the possible sainthood of Mother Teresa:

"Since Mother Teresa's death in 1997, six people have come forward to say prayers to her have led to miraculous cures.

At least one miracle must be proved to a medical committee before she can be beatified. A second miracle must be proved before she can become a saint.

The miracle that will most likely be attempted to be proved involves a Bengali woman who says her life-threatening tumour disappeared within days of her prayers to Mother Teresa."

So I guess just like John Paul, now a person doesn't even have to be alive to perform miracles... as long as someone claims they prayed to them before they got better.

What was that the OP said about the "rigorous examination of miraculous claims", again?

[tisthefire]

lol at op "coldly analizing the facts" and coming to the conclusion that some dead guy coming back from the grave to psychicly expel a disease from her is the "most likely" explaination

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. So a disease that gets misdiagnosed 75% of the time is diagnosed in a person, then later she is found to not have the disease. Miraculous.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
lol at op "coldly analizing the facts" and coming to the conclusion that some dead guy coming back from the grave to psychicly expel a disease from her is the "most likely" explaination

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I'm a believer, I maintain that I dispassionately outlined each possibility for what happened in this case. Which is more than can be said for those who, a priori, decide that miracles cannot happen regardless of evidence presented.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Which is more than can be said for those who, a priori, decide that miracles cannot happen regardless of evidence presented.

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Which is no more than can be said of those that say if it cannot be explained it must be a miracle.

[Neuge]

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Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.

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lol. So a disease that gets misdiagnosed 75% of the time is diagnosed in a person, then later she is found to not have the disease. Miraculous.

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You misread. 75% of PD cases get confirmed at autopsy. So the mis-diagnosis rate is 25%.

[revots33]

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Though I'm a believer, I maintain that I dispassionately outlined each possibility for what happened in this case.

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So what probabilities would you assign each of the possibilities? I'd start with "the ghost of John Paul healed me" at .0000000000000000000000000000000001 percent, and work from there.

[Hopey]

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I believe that the subject matter of your original post opens up a can of worms that puts the Catholic religion in a particularly bad light. Logically speaking.

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David,

Last Sunday we Catholics celebrated the resurrection of Jesus Christ. From a clinically detached and logical perspective, I think the healing of a nun through the intersesion of a deceased pontiff significantly pales in comparison. From the perspective of Faith, however, the resurrection (and to a lesser extent the nun's healing) make perfect sense.

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Yes, your religion is lucky that the resurrection is so ludicrous a claim that all other claims of the supernatural seem reasonable by comparison.

[BluffTHIS!]

Many of the skeptics here have responded with the question as to why God would heal one person, this nun in this case, and not all other believers who had the same disease. This is actually an important question.

And the answer is that any miracle has two purposes, and only one is the primary one. The secondary purpose of course is to grant a cure to the afflicted person who prays in faith for such a cure. But the primary and most important purpose, is that all, believers and non-believers alike, might see the power and mercy of God and place their faith in Him. And by "faith", it is meant "trust", as a child has in its parents, moreso than just a belief in a truth.

God wants all of us to realize that He is our Father and we are his children, that He can forgive our sins, and that He has destined for us an eternal life with Him that is far more important than this earthly life and anything we might suffer here. So the real miracle is the miracle of faith/trust that the cured and others who know of it, come to have in God, or have increased.

And the "simple" reason that God doesn't cure all, even all who have that faith and ask, is tied to the issue of free will and the problem of why evil exists here on earth. Our earthly life here isn't the same as in Heaven, and nothing will ever or can be ever, be perfect.

Jesus Himself in the Gospel showed the truth of the above as to what the primary purpose of His miracles were (and thus any subsequent ones whether through the intercessory prayers of a saint or not by Him) in the following passage:

And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven." And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming." But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Rise and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he then said to the paralytic -- "Rise, take up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home."
--Matt. 9:1-7 (RSV-CE)

[arahant]

Seems to me that god should at least choose a statistically unlikely 'miracle', rather than one that has a &gt;25% chance of being more 'misdiagnosis' than 'miracle'.

But what do I know. I'm not omniscient or anything.

[Tree Surgeon]

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God wants all of us to realize that He is our Father and we are his children, that He can forgive our sins, and that He has destined for us an eternal life with Him that is far more important than this earthly life and anything we might suffer here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about you, but I think if the actual father of a child allowed said child to suffer, while ge watched on and did nothing to stop the suffering, that father should be thrown in jail for negligence.

[MrMon]

Doing some quick research on Parkinson's, there are a few facts worth noting. The nun in question is 46, first diagnosed with Parkinson's in 2001. That would make her 40 at diagnosis, and Parkinson's at 40 is very rare. (Michael J. Fox getting diagnosed at 30 is almost off the charts rare.)

When Parkinson's is diagnosed at such a young age, searching for other diseases that mimic Parkinson's is a must. As was mentioned before, the only way to diagnose for Parkinson's is by looking at the symptoms or by conducting an autopsy, so essentially a Parkinson's diagnosis is an educated guess. (My father-in-law was diagnosed with Parkinson's for 10 years before another doctor decided he didn't have it, diagnosed him with NPH, installed a shunt, and "cured" him of Parkinson's, only he never had it. One of the most amazing things you've ever seen, although the surgery almost killed him.)

Of all the diseases that can mimic Parkinson's, a number can spontaneously remiss, either for unknown reasons or because the reason for the symptoms first appearing disappears. Since one of the causes of the diseases can be stress, I would think that someone who gets a great deal of comfort from religion could in some cases relieve that stress through prayer. Why that works in some cases but not others, or now rather than 5 years ago is anybody's guess, but I'd take a big look in this direction rather than assuming the Parkinson's diagnosis was correct in the first place.

Of course, the skeptic in me says that if you're looking for a miracle, you're going to find one, and something tells me in this case that they're looking for a miracle.

[tisthefire]

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lol at op "coldly analizing the facts" and coming to the conclusion that some dead guy coming back from the grave to psychicly expel a disease from her is the "most likely" explaination

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Though I'm a believer, I maintain that I dispassionately outlined each possibility for what happened in this case. Which is more than can be said for those who, a priori, decide that miracles cannot happen regardless of evidence presented.

[/ QUOTE ]it's not often accusing someone of being logical can sound so pejorative, and i agree you outlined possibilities pretty nicely, you then abandoned your logic and concluded that a miracle is the "most likely" answer

[ChrisV]

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Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.

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lol. So a disease that gets misdiagnosed 75% of the time is diagnosed in a person, then later she is found to not have the disease. Miraculous.

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You misread. 75% of PD cases get confirmed at autopsy. So the mis-diagnosis rate is 25%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. That sounds more reasonable. Point stands, though.

[vhawk01]

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Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.

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lol. So a disease that gets misdiagnosed 75% of the time is diagnosed in a person, then later she is found to not have the disease. Miraculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
You misread. 75% of PD cases get confirmed at autopsy. So the mis-diagnosis rate is 25%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. That sounds more reasonable. Point stands, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other Miracle News:

Die tossed, lands on 4!

[tisthefire]

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Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.

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lol. So a disease that gets misdiagnosed 75% of the time is diagnosed in a person, then later she is found to not have the disease. Miraculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
You misread. 75% of PD cases get confirmed at autopsy. So the mis-diagnosis rate is 25%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. That sounds more reasonable. Point stands, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other Miracle News:

Die tossed, lands on 4!

[/ QUOTE ]lol