Bluffing

[gjpure]

Not sure if this is the right forum so feel free to move.

Anyway I have been considering the value of bluffing primarily in NLHE. I am beginning to wonder if the risk isn't worth the reward. In other words, over the three years I have played poker I wonder if I have made a profit or a loss on all my bluffs. It seems like sometimes I donk off a lot of chips on untimely and big bluffs when I am betting right into the nuts. Other times, my bluffs are based on good reads and good c-bets. But I wonder that if I were to play bluff-free poker if I would come out of cash games with a higher profit in the end. Or is bluffing, if done correctly, such an essential part of poker that it can not be neglected? In live low limit NL games it seems like bluffing is the least successful, especially when the stacks are relatively short. A player wont lay down TPTK, aces, kings, or even two pair if you come over the top. And in many cases, they may be correct to call your raise considering the amount of money in the pot. In higher limit games bluffing in this manner can be more sucessful. With this said, would it be more +EV in the end to never bluff in low limit NL games?

As a corollary to my own playing style most of my bluffing occurs when I get bored or on tilt. I haven't won a hand in an hour or two and I want to get in there. This of course, is a bad reason to bluff and the results reflect it. when I am sucessful, is when I tend to think it out, play the player and tell a convincing story.

Does anyone else struggle with bluffing? Does anyone else feel like they tend to give up long terms profits from bluffing? What about the idea of never bluffing, especially in low-limit NL games?

[nawhead]

Bluffing should just be another tool in your poker arsenal, nothing more. It's not correct to always bluff some static percentage of the time. And it's not correct to never bluff. In my experience, there are some very profitable bluffing situations even in micro stakes NL games. You just have to spot them, like anything else in poker.

Have I bluffed into the nuts? Sure. Have I bet into the nuts with the 2nd nuts? That as well. It's all a part of poker, running into the nuts I mean.

But I'm not going to stop betting my good hands because I'm afraid someone has the nuts. And I'm not going to stop bluffing if I think I see a profitable spot.

I think bluffing is the ultimate skill. Successful bluffing is knowing yourself and your opponent. It's knowing how he reacts to certain types of pressure with his range of hands, on this board, against your image. It's understanding the big picture.

And it's conviction. Conviction that even if you get called, knowing that you made the right play because of all the factors you considered. If your analysis is sound, your bluffs should be profitable over the long run all by themselves. As well as the obvious meta-game implications.

I'd rather face opponents who never or hardly ever bluff versus someone that is capable of putting me in tough spots constantly. Being tough to play against is always +EV.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
A player wont lay down TPTK, aces, kings, or even two pair if you come over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never bluff a calling station.

Bluffing will give more value to your real hands. Especially if you haven't played a hand in several rounds. If you fold 50 hands in a row, when you finally do get a hand & raise, red flags go up & people fold.

[PantsOnFire]

You are missing something very important. Over the course of a poker session, you may end up in the negative when bluffing (i.e. money lost on bluff vs. money won on bluffs).

However, the actions of your bluffing has other ramifications. It generally means that you will get paid off when you bet for value, especially if your value bets are the same amount as your bluffs. So overall, you may lose some on the bluffing but gain more on the value betting thus turning the session in the positive.

One of the keys to bluffing is to do it in the right spots. Some examples are:

1. Don't bluff into loose players or calling stations.

2. Bluff at smaller pots.

3. There is no need to make your bluff bet larger than a normal bet.

4. Learn to make use of continuation bet bluffing.

5. Try a preflop re-raise bluff against a player you figure might be weak and will lay down.

6. Pay attention to players who are actually folding. Take note of when they fold. Some will fold on a flop they don't like while others will call to the river and then fold on the river when they miss whatever draw they were on.

7. Try a checkraise bluff.

8. In most cases, do this sort of bluffing against one player and in small pots. It is much more difficult to bluff multiple players and bluff players out of large pots.

9. Try to detect betting patterns and thus weakness. Take many small stabs at small pots when you detect weakness.

IMHO, the only time it is worthwhile to do zero bluffing is when you are playing against players who are so bad, they simply don't notice what you are doing. And of course, bluffing against players who can't fold is another big no-no.

As an exercise the next time you play, assign a bluffability factor to each of your opponents (or just pick the 4 nearest you). Use that factor to adjust your frequency on how often you bluff into them. Look for the best opportunities.

[Rainclouds]

[ QUOTE ]
However, the actions of your bluffing has other ramifications. It generally means that you will get paid off when you bet for value, especially if your value bets are the same amount as your bluffs. So overall, you may lose some on the bluffing but gain more on the value betting thus turning the session in the positive.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is very important.

I regularly get caught when I bluff, but when I do, it is so easy to get paid off when you have the nuts later on.

So, in a NL100 game, I bluff off $10 and get caught.
A couple of hands later, I win $100 because I get called down by a player with TPTK. If I didn't get caught bluffing earlier, the player who called down wouldn't even have thought about doing that.

So indeed, like PantsOnFire states, if you add up your bluffs it might look like you're losing money with it, but you never know how much more money you made from it in later hands. It can be more profitable than it appears to be.

on a side note: I like to bluff on small pots - it works often, and if not it's great cheap advertisement. I never blow my whole stack away on a pure bluff.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
So indeed, like PantsOnFire states, if you add up your bluffs it might look like you're losing money with it, but you never know how much more money you made from it in later hands. It can be more profitable than it appears to be.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reinforcement and I would like to emphasize one other aspect.

For your bluffing to be converted to +EV later on, you need to be playing against opponents who are paying attention to your play. This is one of the reasons that bluffing against bad or inattentive opponents is usually not profitable. This is why poker is such a great game. It (bluffing) is just one more variable you need to consider to round out your game.

It's like an ingredient in a complex recipe. You need to decide how much to add depending on who is tasting the final cake.

[omaha]

There have been a few excellent posts here.

Ill add another 2c worth.

Show aggression when everyone has shown weakness, and get out when you have zip and someone else is aggressive.

If you are uncomfortable with bluffing, then just up your semi bluffs, ie all draws, middle pairs, etc.

Also, sometimes the crud hands are the best, because, if you are raised, your cards go into the muck, instead of having a difficult decision to make!

[jiacstrap]

If you are bluffing on the river, you have to have balls and raise it up some. Min-raises won't work. Which means you must be able to trust your reads, and know the players at your table. Semi-bluffs on the flop and turn are a different story...

[strider]

I have ran into situations where I have lost alot of money bluffing and wondered if I should just play bluff-free poker. However, I realized that I can tell when players do not bluff and against these players I can lay down TPTK without a second thought so no bluffing means the only time I get paid off is when I have nuts and the player has 2nd nuts and how often does that happen?

[Shizzle12345]

its funny, on 50NL i raised with 79s. I didnt hit and made a value, bet into 2 players. They somehow folded (i later found out, they were all calling way too much and i got pretty lucky they didnt call me down with ace high), and i showed it. So later on i get KK, do the same raise and the c-bet, and some idiot reraises me, I push (flop is not dangerous and they played very bad), he calls with Ace high (A6s) , and hits his runner runner flush. He later explained, I saw u bluffing before, so I just called, Ace is pretty good you know...

I thought it was pretty funny :P even tho i lost the pot.

[br.bm]

"As a corollary to my own playing style most of my bluffing occurs when I get bored or on tilt. I haven't won a hand in an hour or two and I want to get in there. "
I have the very same problem when I play live. The good point is that people see me as a donk and call me more often.

On the long run I only make + with my c-bets. Big turn and river tilt bluffs are -EV.