non-Christians: Your take on Jesus

[ShakeZula06]

Don't mean anything derogitory about "non-Christian", just a way to group people that don't believe in Christianity. I was going to say aethyist but that exludes believers in faiths that are not Christian. Basically wanted to guage what most non-Christians think about Jesus, was he a good guy (possibly Black), a clever magician, or completely made up. I didn't make this to start n arguement, JW what you guys think.

[madnak]

Honestly, there is too little information (and too much of it conflicting) for me to form much of an opinion on Jesus. Whether he even existed is in question, and the varying early Christian sects had such radically different takes on him that I just don't know.

[Gobgogbog]

I have no idea how I would go about finding unbiased information about him, nor do I have the motivation to try to. I have no idea if the account of him in the bible is inspired by a real person or not, nor does it matter to me.

[MidGe]

I am sure that there was an historical person called "Jesus". In fact I am certain there were many of them at that period. It wasn't an unusual name.

I could esily accept that what christians call the gospels would be derivative of the live of one or many so-called Jesus, but so are many legends based on some past real event, just greatly exagerated and embellished.

Having read the bible, I am simply not impressed at all about it as an edifying work. But hey.. it takes all sorts.

[Lestat]

From what I understand there seems to be documentation that he lived and was a real person (am I wrong about this?).

Other than that, who knows? Of course, I don't believe in the purported miracles, but he could've been an especially nice and unique good guy who was perhaps also a bit eccentric. One thing is for sure, he must've had a very pursuasive personality. I know I'll probably be one of the only atheists to say this....

Whether he was the Son of God or mentally ill, if he went through what he did, because he really and truly believed he was saving me and all of humanity from eternal damnation, then I am very grateful and would thank him if I ever met him. What he did took incredible faith and bravery even if it was for naught. To me it's the thought/deed that counts.

[hmkpoker]

Insufficient data.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea if the account of him in the bible is inspired by a real person or not, nor does it matter to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he was the son of God? Would that matter to you?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
What if he was the son of God? Would that matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does god have DNA, semen? what does that concept mean " son of god"? Like the concept of god itself, it sounds ok until you try and take a closer look and then all you're left looking at is a cheshirian grin.

luckyme

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
What if he was the son of God? Would that matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would not matter one iota to me. It would confirm what I think already, that if there is a god then he is immoral, by letting his son suffer that way.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if he was the son of God? Would that matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would not matter one iota to me. It would confirm what I think already, that if there is a god then he is immoral, by letting his son suffer that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expect you wont be interested in pursuing the point. I would mention though that if it was proved to you that Jesus was the son of God (and if you also believed God to be as described "usually") then it probably should matter to you.

After all, you can only judge the ethics of an action against its alternatives (unless you are an extreme deontologist (?) I guess). Given God's presumed infallibility, it would probably mean that all the alternatives were worse, morally....

Obviously a hypothetical for you, but arguments impugning God's morality are tough to make stick imo, given how much more he is deemed to know than the rest of us.

[MidGe]

Hi bunny,


Thanks for your reply, and yet, as I have said on this board before, even if there was a god it would not make an iota of difference to me. Altough the move from a total agnostic to a strong atheist position I have made, in part, due to the immorality of the god concept.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi bunny,


Thanks for your reply, and yet, as I have said on this board before, even if there was a god it would not make an iota of difference to me. Altough the move from a total agnostic to a strong atheist position I have made, in part, due to the immorality of the god concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any idea on the thread title or titles regarding this position? I'd be interested in reading the debate

[Lestat]

I don't understand... Why would God need DNA or semen?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand... Why would God need DNA or semen?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point he was making is that he defines son in terms of male offspring or some other physical way and without the physical paraphernalia the term is a misnomer.

[MidGe]

I made the same comments in reply to other threads with various titles. I have never started a thread on this precise topic as I am not given to proselytizing.

I am happy to reply to any questions you may have regarding "The immorality of god" on this or on another thread.

[Gobgogbog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea if the account of him in the bible is inspired by a real person or not, nor does it matter to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he was the son of God? Would that matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, of course.

[_TKO_]

An intelligent man looking to improve on the Jewish religion.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand... Why would God need DNA or semen?

[/ QUOTE ]

For somebody to be called "son of X " we typically rely on a paternity dna test ( unless we are referring to the legal status part as in 'adopted son' ). What test could we apply to jchrist if we had him right here, right now, in the lab, that would confirm he was the son of god? None? Then what does the term 'son of god' mean?

The guy on the street corner near the art gallery today is claiming to be the son of god. If we had both of them in the lab, could we differentiate which one is the 'real' son of god?

It's a meaningless claim, since anyone can make it and there is no way to ever know if it is true or not, even today, in the flesh. What is the test for it?

So my take .. there will never be any way to differentiate 'his' claim from the thousands of others who over the last 2000 years have also claimed to be the 'son of god'. That his caught on ( as have several others, just not in as big a way) obviously has no bearing on the case.

luckyme

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
I made the same comments in reply to other threads with various titles. I have never started a thread on this precise topic as I am not given to proselytizing.

I am happy to reply to any questions you may have regarding "The immorality of god" on this or on another thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard this opinion expressed before, that if there is a God he is evil/immoral. Do you hate your life? In the hypothetical that there is a God that without his/her say you would have not been born.

I suppose you are referring to atrocities committed, natural disasters, etc horrible things throughout the spam of time. Did the Christian/jewish/possibly muslim God not give man the Garden of Eden?

[Dominic]

good guy, great message, not the son of god.

[Matt Jenko]

seems like a man with social views different from the ruling classes who became embroiled in the politics of the day, whose death became a focus for others with differing agendas who have turned his life into something the man himself almost certainly was not interested in.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Socialist trouble-maker /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand... Why would God need DNA or semen?

[/ QUOTE ]

For somebody to be called "son of X " we typically rely on a paternity dna test ( unless we are referring to the legal status part as in 'adopted son' ). What test could we apply to jchrist if we had him right here, right now, in the lab, that would confirm he was the son of god? None? Then what does the term 'son of god' mean?

The guy on the street corner near the art gallery today is claiming to be the son of god. If we had both of them in the lab, could we differentiate which one is the 'real' son of god?

It's a meaningless claim, since anyone can make it and there is no way to ever know if it is true or not, even today, in the flesh. What is the test for it?

So my take .. there will never be any way to differentiate 'his' claim from the thousands of others who over the last 2000 years have also claimed to be the 'son of god'. That his caught on ( as have several others, just not in as big a way) obviously has no bearing on the case.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

JC as paranoid schizophrenic...not bad. Psycho-pharmaceuticals might be more valuable than a DNA test, since we arent likely to find Gods toothbrush lying around to get his sample.

[Alex-db]

Lets assume it is factual he lived and was executed. (I think this is likely)

It is likely that all the "nice guy" stuff is Christian spin created after the events.

My understanding was that he was a minority religious terrorist, and thats why he was executed (vandalising temples, incitement etc).

I'm sure Al'Queda's PR guys give a pretty convincing argument to their followers that Bin Laden is a "nice guy with revolutionary positive ideas"

Just because Christianity is accepted in the West doesn't mean we should assume it is/was benign. We need to think outside the box.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically wanted to guage what most non-Christians think about Jesus

[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

On a completely different note:

What do you think about Dionysus?

[nepenthe]

He was probably a faith-healer amongst others. You know people like Benny Hinn these days who try to emulate Jesus - I'd guess it derives from those characteristics of Jesus.

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
good guy, great message, not the son of god.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't be both a good guy AND not the son of God. I love it when people say things like "Jesus was a good man, a great teacher and leader but He wasn't the Son of God."

If He wasn't the Son of God, then He's nothing but liar and a complete fraud. You can't be a good man when your entire life's work is spun around a lie.

He was either who He said He was, or He was liar, a fraud, and an all around evil person....

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good guy, great message, not the son of god.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't be both a good guy AND not the son of God. I love it when people say things like "Jesus was a good man, a great teacher and leader but He wasn't the Son of God."

If He wasn't the Son of God, then He's nothing but liar and a complete fraud. You can't be a good man when your entire life's work is spun around a lie.

He was either who He said He was, or He was liar, a fraud, and an all around evil person....

[/ QUOTE ]
He could have been operating under a false belief. Ie - he wasn't who he said he was, a liar, a fraud or an all around evil person...he was mistaken.

(Obviously not my view, but it is internally consistent).

[madnak]

So. Clearly you're a Christian. In which case, you must not believe that the Dalai Lama is what he claims to be. So is the Dalai Lama a liar and a complete fraud? Can he not be a good man?

What about Gandhi? How do you feel about him?

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good guy, great message, not the son of god.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't be both a good guy AND not the son of God. I love it when people say things like "Jesus was a good man, a great teacher and leader but He wasn't the Son of God."

If He wasn't the Son of God, then He's nothing but liar and a complete fraud. You can't be a good man when your entire life's work is spun around a lie.

He was either who He said He was, or He was liar, a fraud, and an all around evil person....

[/ QUOTE ]
He could have been delusional and acutally believed he was the Son of God. That doesn't preclude him from being a decent person.

[ubercuber]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a meaningless claim, since anyone can make it and there is no way to ever know if it is true or not, even today, in the flesh. What is the test for it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Faith is the test.

Regarding the good guy, not Son of God comment:
Similair to Mars point, CS Lewis argues that Jesus must either be a liar, a nutcase, or the Son of God. If He was not the Son of God, He either knew it or didn't know it, which makes Him either a liar or a nutcase. If you look at his teachings and see that his messages still stand all these years later, it is hard to believe He was a nutcase, and his life and beliefs tend to make liar unlikely. It is such an important question and the decision to trust Him and see what He can do with your life is so seemingly easy, it is a wonder it took me so long to do it. But I didn't like the concept of faith. I came to understand it though and I am glad I did.

As far as God being immoral: If there is an afterlife that is beyond our compehension then it is impossible to know what is ultimatly best. One mans suffering has clearly changed the world and the lives of many murderers, addicts, etc. That is not even considering the afterlife. Could it been accomplished another way? Hey, you change the world and make it hold up for 2000 years, one up God, and then criticise!

How often do you hear: I put my life in God's hands and He screwed it all up?
How about: I put my life in God's hands and the changes where miraculous?

Bottom line, I agrued against for 25+ years and it gained me nothing, when I conceded my points were flawed (I'll elaborate if anyone is interested), I gave Him a chance and He did not waste any time. Remember how stupid you were when you were a teenager, but how stupid everyone else seemed? How different it all looks now! Same thing. Not calling non believers stupid by the way, or teenagers for that matter, but it is so similar. No matter how many people tell you you'll understand when you get older you don't buy it, and no matter many people tell you to have faith and He will not let you down, you are not going to believe it unless you try it. Of course, we don't have the option to remain teenagers.

[MidGe]

ubercuber,

Of course it is all hearsay. Jesus may have been very different from the way he was/is portrayed.

[Mr_J]

I see these as the possibilities:

1. He is who he says he is.
2. He believes who he says he is although it is not true.
3. He is a conman.

I'm not religious and don't 'believe in god', but I do think that there is a possibility that a god does exist, whether or not that god exists in the way humans perceive him/her/it.

We don't really know, and may never know who or what he was.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Faith is the test.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe elves make it rain, then every raindrop is proof of elves.

luckyme

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Faith is the test.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe elves make it rain, then every raindrop is proof of elves.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

[godBoy]

What we can do is observe what happened after his life.
Jesus freaks gave their lives up to promote his message and still are doing so today. If the events in the bible are complete fabrications then the results are truly amazing.

I'm convinced that there was something indeed special and unique about this guy who is the biggest phenomenon in history, enough so that those around him believed in him and were able to start a movement like christianity.
But the post is for non-christians...sorry.

[Mr_J]

Benny Hinn or whatever his name is has a ton of followers too. Doesn't make him any more authentic.

[godBoy]

I'm talking about the original character of Jesus. There had to be something different about him to make the impact he did.
I think it's silly to think he was.... say.. rude and arrogant.
There's reason to believe that he was a very appealing character and 'nice'.

[Mr_J]

I'm not saying he was rude or arrogant. If he was a conman, he was most likely very charming, good looking, strong minded, energetic etc. Say in the same way as tony robins. The power to influence and motivate people by just being around him.

[MidGe]

Yes most interesting dude indeed. Most famous for having spawned one of the most divided band of followers in the history of mankind. A divisive person, if you ask me.

Must be due to the lack of clarity or coherence in the message.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes most interesting dude indeed. Most famous for having spawned one of the most divided band of followers in the history of mankind. A divisive person, if you ask me.

Must be due to the lack of clarity or coherence in the message.

[/ QUOTE ]
jesus was influential,influence brings power, power attracts those who seek control of others, these people distort to suit their ends.

They prey on the gullable as per usual.

chez

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
So. Clearly you're a Christian. In which case, you must not believe that the Dalai Lama is what he claims to be. So is the Dalai Lama a liar and a complete fraud? Can he not be a good man?

What about Gandhi? How do you feel about him?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I have no idea what the Dalai Lama claims to be. Does he claim to be the Son of God? I've also never heard that Gandhi made any claims of Godhood.

Having said that, I admit to knowing very little about eastern religions but if someone knowingly claims to be God while knowing full well that they are not God, then yes, they are a fraud.

[Max Weinberg]

Well, he's not made up, because I've seen him on TV. And he's most definitely white - you can tell that from just looking at him. My honest opinion about Jesus is that he needs another WSOP bracelet and needs to stop busting out of the Main Event so early.

[ubercuber]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So. Clearly you're a Christian. In which case, you must not believe that the Dalai Lama is what he claims to be. So is the Dalai Lama a liar and a complete fraud? Can he not be a good man?

What about Gandhi? How do you feel about him?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I have no idea what the Dalai Lama claims to be. Does he claim to be the Son of God? I've also never heard that Gandhi made any claims of Godhood.

Having said that, I admit to knowing very little about eastern religions but if someone knowingly claims to be God while knowing full well that they are not God, then yes, they are a fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

I Agree.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Faith is the test.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe elves make it rain, then every raindrop is proof of elves.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

That is pretty funny. I don't think the incredible difference that has been made in so many peoples lives can be written off as self dilusion, but that was still funny.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes most interesting dude indeed. Most famous for having spawned one of the most divided band of followers in the history of mankind. A divisive person, if you ask me.

Must be due to the lack of clarity or coherence in the message.

[/ QUOTE ]
jesus was influential,influence brings power, power attracts those who seek control of others, these people distort to suit their ends.

They prey on the gullable as per usual.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't buy the conman theory for the simple reason that Jesus had a very clear picture of what he was to gain, in a worldly sense...crucifixion. Too smart to have such a lame scam, imo.

Again, thinking people will never be convinced by other people because it admittedly sounds outlandish. I argued the ridiculousness of the concept of requiring faith, despite God given information processing skills for years. But I was wrong. Until I just admitted that possibility I was going nowhere, spiritually speaking. Is it really that hard to imagine? We are here for 15 years and we are so sure we have it all figured out. Does that not sound outlandish too? I think was motivated against because didn't want to live like I thought "Christians lived". I still don't! But I was not very informed about what that actually looks like.

[godBoy]

Midge, the church is not nearly as divided as you claim, the core beliefs remain.

[ QUOTE ]
jesus was influential,influence brings power, power attracts those who seek control of others, these people distort to suit their ends.

They prey on the gullable as per usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

chezlaw, the message Jesus preached was the opposite of what you are talking about. He spoke of humility and servanthood, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant...
Sure, there would have been people in the history of the church who were power-hungry. Not most, the vast majority are not 'predators' and believe in and follow Christ's message. I'm sure there are some gullable believers but you can't generalise like that.

[madnak]

They both make claims that are inconsistent with Christianity. "Gods" in this sense don't exist in buddhism, but the Dalai Lama claims to be a bodhisattva, a holy being.

But if you consider the Dalai Lama a fraud this discussion isn't going to go anywhere. I think we have some fundamental differences in terms of what we respect in a person. He certainly believes he is the Dalai Lama, as he has been taught such from a very young age.

[MidGe]

madnak,

Just to clarify. First, I don't know if the Dalai Lama claims to be a boddhisattva or not. The meaning of the term however is someone that is on his way to enlightement but has NOT reached it yet.

[madnak]

Well, I believe he is supposed to be the incarnation of the boddhisattva of compassion, who decided to forsake enlightenment for all eternity in order to help others achieve it.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Midge, the church is not nearly as divided as you claim, the core beliefs remain.

[ QUOTE ]
jesus was influential,influence brings power, power attracts those who seek control of others, these people distort to suit their ends.

They prey on the gullable as per usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

chezlaw, the message Jesus preached was the opposite of what you are talking about. He spoke of humility and servanthood, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant...
Sure, there would have been people in the history of the church who were power-hungry. Not most, the vast majority are not 'predators' and believe in and follow Christ's message. I'm sure there are some gullable believers but you can't generalise like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said anything about jesus' message but the generalisation about gullible believers is valid almost to the point of tautology.

chez

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I believe he is supposed to be the incarnation of the boddhisattva of compassion

[/ QUOTE ]
vs
[ QUOTE ]
the Dalai Lama claims to be a bodhisattva

[/ QUOTE ]

I got flamed for supposedly misrepresenting and it was nothing like that dude /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lil'T]

The son of God ? I wouldn't want that crazy old war mongerer as my Dad. The God of the old testiment wasn't a very nice chappy.

As for followers of Jesus - deluded, desperate and dangerous. Look at the crusades, the spanish inquisition and the present cohort in the white house today.

I believe the world would be a better place if Jesus had just spread his message of love but kept his delusional ideation to himself.

lil'T

[madnak]

What? A quick google search seems to confirm what I said.

[Case Closed]

Jesus, he's that guy I don't like because whenever I talk about what I think of him with my mom she gets pissed and Christmas is ruined.

[billygrippo]

why would i care what some 2000 year old dude did if im not a christian?

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I believe he is supposed to be the incarnation of the boddhisattva of compassion, who decided to forsake enlightenment for all eternity in order to help others achieve it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And in the immortal words of Carl Spackler, "At least Ive got that goin for me".