7CSFAP - Part I (1 of 3)

[dandy_don]

OK, it now looks like Part I - Third Street will be handled in thirds, instead of half in one sitting. When breaking down "Ante Stealing", there seems to be enough discussion material there for a good start.

Please post some hand examples that go along with some of these topics.

Part I – Third Street
I. Introduction

II. “The Cards That Are Out”

III. “The Number of Players in the Pot”


IV. “Ante Stealing” (Link to a post by greenage regarding steal situations) (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4330627&an=0&page=0#Post 4330627)

Part I – Third Street to be continued
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In reading this section of the book, I recognize I have huge weaknesses for being far too passive on third street, which I suspected all along. I believe I do not attempt to steal often enough, and I believe I fold to a steal attempt too often.

Question #1 - In the section "The Cards That are Out" the author states weak hands that are "completely live" such as straight draws, pairs or “whatever” are usually playable. What do you consider to define “whatever”?

dandy

[BeerMoney]

Don, this looks really cool. I'll participate more on thursday.

Beer

[dandy_don]

[ QUOTE ]
• Small pairs with small kickers should be thrown away in a raised pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps this is a weakness in my game, but I'm surprised to find that small pairs with a small kicker should only be trashed in a raised pot. I rarely play these anytime and I believe the Ashley Adams' book recommends trashing these. Perhaps in small stakes, trashing these will be +EV and higher limits there can be +EV due to the tightness of the games and the ability to get away from the hand with experience.

Thoughts?

I would be interested to see someone post a hand that wins with a small pair-small kicker and discuss how to carefully manuever through the hand, when to fold if the opponent hits a certain card, etc.

[SimonAllan]

I don't have any hands at this stage, but I'll chuck in some thoughts for what they're worth to try and get a discussion going.

Three flushes with two big cards - I still generally prefer to play these as multiway hands, and then try to limit the field if I make a pair and it seems right to do so. The problem I have with 7CSFAP is that it doesn't demonstrate that it is in fact superior to try to get it heads up, it just says that it is better to play that way.

Small pairs with small kickers - I read this as talking about live hnads with live straight flush kickers, such as (5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif rather than just junk like (2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif with a dead two. I think the first hand is worth taking off a card in a multi-way unraised pot. If I play, I'm looking to have either trip sixes or a pair and a good draw on 5th. What usually happens is that I have either sixes up or a pair and a gutshot, and get in a mess.

I think you don't give up a lot not playing these hands, but I also agree with the idea in 7CSFAP that most decent players are too tight in late position in unraised pots. It doesn't cost much to call third and fold fourth if you don't catch perfect.

Ante stealing - I find that calling third and betting fourth on most boards often works better than completing third if I have absolute junk.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
-----------------------------------------------------

In reading this section of the book, I recognize I have huge weaknesses for being far too passive on third street, which I suspected all along. I believe I do not attempt to steal often enough, and I believe I fold to a steal attempt too often.

Question #1 - In the section "The Cards That are Out" the author states weak hands that are "completely live" such as straight draws, pairs or “whatever” are usually playable. What do you consider to define “whatever”?

dandy

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to remember what stakes the book is written for when making your first statement. In a typical 1/2 or 2/4 game, stealing rarely works. I think the advice to steal a lot will apply better at a 3/6 structure where to call the steal you have to have a better hand because you have to put in a greater proportion of your initial bet. This is obviously opposite to defending. It is easier to take one off for another .5 or 1 than it is to put in an extra 2 in a 3/6 structure when you have nothing to defend with.

I would probably define "whatever" as something like J Q A and the like.