25NL - KK put all-in on a dry flop

[pena]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Button ($26.70)</font>
SB ($19.35)
BB ($18.65)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($26)</font>
MP ($25)
CO ($5.15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, MP calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($3.35) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2.75</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $13</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $25.7</font>

opp: unknown

What should I do here againts full stacked unknown?
Do you call or fold?
Do you play this differently?

[eternal_]

You can't fold this. He can have set,two pair,straight,overpair or combodraw depending on how donkish he is. 56 or 74,73,43 would be pretty marginal calls preflop,though. Only hand you don't want to see is a set.

But I would definitely shove to buttons raise.

[Pirelli]

I call this all day. If you're even considering folding, don't 3-bet.

[ShipitFMA]

I prefer 3bet ai rather than 13. At least gives you some FE

[Genz]

I call.

[ama0330]

Lol this is nowhere near a dry flop dude, both the straight AND the flush draws are out there.

I cant really find a fold here against an unknown but to be honest, particularly against an unknown I feel a little uneasy stacking off here, its a marginal spot. But of course he could be putting YOU on a draw and because the flop is low and semi co-ordinated he could think his 88-QQ is good. I think you have to go nuts here.

[Lordy]

I play it the same and call his shove.

[pena]

What about my 3-bet on the flop? Is everyone shoving after his raise?
Or should I just call his min-raise see what he will do on the turn?

[monkover]

I think the way u played it is fine but this def is not a dry flop... You have to call the way u played it ( getting way better than 2 to 1 on your money) u´ll lose quite often though

[Daniel LeClaire]

Unless you have a read that he min raises draws the min raise usually ISN'T a draw. Also, the more players in the hand = the stronger a raise is.

I can't really imagine he has 88-QQ. He didn't feel that it was strong enough to reraise pf but he's willing to get all in on the flop? Most 25NL would just call. I think you see a set here a lot.

I think too many people see a flop with a flush draw and automatically they are ready to go broke because, 'he could have a flush draw.' Tight players and most unknowns at micro limits are almost never raising bare flush draws IME.

[DannyOcean_]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you have a read that he min raises draws the min raise usually ISN'T a draw. Also, the more players in the hand = the stronger a raise is.

I can't really imagine he has 88-QQ. He didn't feel that it was strong enough to reraise pf but he's willing to get all in on the flop? Most 25NL would just call. I think you see a set here a lot.

I think too many people see a flop with a flush draw and automatically they are ready to go broke because, 'he could have a flush draw.' Tight players and most unknowns at micro limits are almost never raising bare flush draws IME.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you havent seen people going all-in with undercards and a flush draw, you really havent been paying attention. I see this every day. He could have an overpair and put you on a whiffed AK, I have a hard time laying this down. This is a combo draw/draw+pair just as often as it is a set, and i think the added possibility of QQ-88 makes it a call. I also like the 3-bet all in.

[juanepr]

The only place I could remotely consider folding is to the minraise. After that, no matter what you do, all your stack is going in. In that case, I prefer 3bet allin so atleast you have some FE (like ShipItFMA said). This spot is very marginal, so expect to lose often. This hand is excatly why we need a 20buyin bankroll. You can't really fold, but it is easy to lose 4-5 of these in a row and be smack in the middle of a downswing.

[Daniel LeClaire]

[ QUOTE ]
If you havent seen people going all-in with undercards and a flush draw, you really havent been paying attention. I see this every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm paying attention. I don't see it. That's why I stated 'IME'. If you see it a lot then, great, shove all day. But, it has been my experience that the majority of the time you are behind. Especially against an unknown, since unknowns tend to be passive rather than aggressive.

[thib82]

Am I missing something here? It seems to me you are up against a set. I can see him having 88-JJ, but without a read on the guy, I think you will lose in this spot too often. I think you can count out any straight or flush draws, given the re-reraise all-in. You dont see many people even donkeys making that kind of move with a draw. The only problem is the amount of money you already have invested. So I agree, if you are going to 3-bet, then make the push all-in, dont give him a chance to move in on you.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer 3bet ai rather than 13. At least gives you some FE

[/ QUOTE ]
I don´t really get this. There is 0% chance that better hands fold, and we want him to call with a draw/worse pair. FE is the last thing we want.

[loosemmjan]

Wow, you fell in love with the Cowboys. Not a bad thing I have been stacked with them to. Thats why we play 25nl to learn to limit our losses with pairs.

This analysis seems simple to me.

Lets add it up.

Here bets raises to a $1.
Villain calls (Calling range 22+, A10+, K10+, QJ+, SC)

Flop is 4 7 3 two clubs

Hero bets (annonces he has a hand)
Villain raises (Says hero is FOS or I have something)
Hero 3 bets (announces I really have a hand)
Villain pushes his whole stack (Announcing Ax flush draw or set, maybe two pair if he loves crappy suited cards)

I haven't played a lot of 25nl, but, I have not seen to many stacks pushed with 88-QQ.

So the only hand you are ahead of is the Flush Draw.

I hope you improved on the turn or the river.

~loose

[Jouster777]

You are coinflipping vs. a likely range and there's no good spot to fold even if you wanted to. If you just call the flop RR you only help the drawing part of his range and still get sucked in by the rest. Push.

Board: 4c 3c 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.502% 49.87% 00.63% 17281 218.00 { QQ-JJ, 77, 44-33, AcJc, AcTc, KcQc, KcJc, QcJc, JcTc, Tc9c, 9c8c, 8c7c, 7c6c, 65s }
Hand 1: 49.498% 48.87% 00.63% 16933 218.00 { KdKh }

[Machavelli]

At these stakes I'm never folding KK here. Villains range is huge here and we are definitely ahead of it.

I have definitely seen FD shove, A7 could shove here, 88-QQ definitely shoves here, combo draws, I think you're ahead of his range for sure.