50 - odd spot with AQ (TPTK=push/fold?)

[Split Suit]

this hand kinda put me in an odd spot. it was towards the end of my session, so i had played about 200 hands with both villians.

SpewTank - 48/10/6 over 200, likes to push and PSB all the time. calling is usually draw, weak pair. plays sillier in HU pots as opposed to multiway

TAGgro - 21/11/3.5 over 200. hasnt 3b pf too often, and i have to respect for something decent. im not sure if a push will fold out AA/KK, but surely folds out AK.

Myself - running 23/18/4. i dont think ive done anything silly on this table. mostly pretty tight due to being card dead

push or fold? (and i dont think anyone will say call...but if they do, plz heavily explain why)



Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
6 Players
Lego Poker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
SB: $39.75
<font color="black">SpewTank: $43.05</font>
UTG: $44
<font color="black">Hero (MP): $52.45</font>
<font color="black">TAGgro (CO): $53.95</font>
BTN: $61.25

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.75, 6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">TAGgro raises to $5</font>, 2 folds, SpewTank calls $4.50, Hero calls $3.25

<font color="black">Flop:</font> Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($15.25, 3 Players)
SpewTank checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">TAGgro bets $11</font>, SpewTank calls $11, Hero ???

[CanYouCallThis]

I would fold preflop. I don't understand how you can give a line like this in your thread: "hasnt 3b pf too often, and i have to respect for something decent" and then calling a 3bet OoP with a mediocre hand like AQo.

As played preflop, I'dd fold it. Spew puts in another nice piece of dead money, since he's not going to call a shove. Leaves TAGgro.

I really don't care what he could have to start with, I'm just wondering how he sees you. As you described, you are playing tight aggro and not playing too many hands in this session. I think he puts you on a hand like midpair here preflop. That means, that with a shove here, he will prob most likely put you on a set. So his FE will prob be a big larger then you described.

I think he will not let go AA, but KK would probably be a fold, if he is at the level I think he is. So you have got the range AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK for him here imo.

He will fold KK/AK en call the shove with AA/QQ/JJ.

So no good here I think. Fold.

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold preflop. I don't understand how you can give a line like this in your thread: "hasnt 3b pf too often, and i have to respect for something decent" and then calling a 3bet OoP with a mediocre hand like AQo.

As played preflop, I'dd fold it. Spew puts in another nice piece of dead money, since he's not going to call a shove. Leaves TAGgro.

I really don't care what he could have to start with, I'm just wondering how he sees you. As you described, you are playing tight aggro and not playing too many hands in this session. I think he puts you on a hand like midpair here preflop. That means, that with a shove here, he will prob most likely put you on a set. So his FE will prob be a big larger then you described.

I think he will not let go AA, but KK would probably be a fold, if he is at the level I think he is. So you have got the range AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK for him here imo.

He will fold KK/AK en call the shove with AA/QQ/JJ.

So no good here I think. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but your advice to fold preflop sucks. We're getting 2.25 to a 15 dollar pot. That's freaking 6:1. How much more nitty can we get with AQ OOP? Calling just for broadway and QQx flop is good enough.

I would probably lead out flop to see where I'm at. If he raises, then I'd fold. You really want to isolate the weaker player. With a spewtard behind, tagaggro prob won't make a move without overpair or better.

[Split Suit]

folding preflop doesnt make much sense to me. were gettin a decent price, and were also not completely OOP on the hand.

[Split Suit]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably lead out flop to see where I'm at. If he raises, then I'd fold. You really want to isolate the weaker player. With a spewtard behind, tagaggro prob won't make a move without overpair or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was kind of my thinking. tho i figured he wudnt Cbet light (AK/TT in this case). so i figuured i got the same info with the check as a bet (so2speak). am i wrong in this thinking?

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would probably lead out flop to see where I'm at. If he raises, then I'd fold. You really want to isolate the weaker player. With a spewtard behind, tagaggro prob won't make a move without overpair or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was kind of my thinking. tho i figured he wudnt Cbet light (AK/TT in this case). so i figuured i got the same info with the check as a bet (so2speak). am i wrong in this thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm I'm not sure. You probably would have a better read on villian.

I think here's a good way to decide whether to check or bet. What would you do if you were holding QJ or a set? Are you betting/three bet or are you check/raising? I would probably lead out not to give a free card.

Also, folding AQ here w/o a bet is a pretty weak line in my opinion. AQ hitting Q high flop is as good as it gets. Just throw 11 in the pot and it makes our life a lot easier.

[CanYouCallThis]

You just said it, Qhigh flop is as good as it gets (if you hit a QQx flop 1/6 I want to play on your account!). Still, you want to fold to a raise from villain. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen; fold preflop.

[Genz]

Given you description of the players, I like a fold on the flop. The board is pretty coordinated and Spew could be drawing. And you are sandwiched between the two players who play aggressively, both. When you lead the flop here, AA and maybe even KK could flat call to keep Spew in the hand and pop you on the turn. Because you didn't reraise preflop, it's pretty easy for him to put you on a Q or draw here. It's just that you have to expect a lot of big bets until showdown on a pretty coordinated board against two players that make this hand worthless, imo.

[tw0please]

C/r is far superior to b/3b if you know villain is aggro enough to cbet scary flops like this, because of the potential dead money in the BB.

Also I think those who are saying the pfrr would fold KK to a shove are giving a player with tight stats way too much credit.

[tw0please]

[ QUOTE ]
You just said it, Qhigh flop is as good as it gets (if you hit a QQx flop 1/6 I want to play on your account!). Still, you want to fold to a raise from villain. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen; fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but have you heard of implied odds??

[CanYouCallThis]

I'm wondering, since none of you prefer to fold preflop, what flop WOULD you like to get here? The only flops you are gonna like are QQx and TJKr. Pretty slim chance of that happening, can't see you getting 1/6 there.

Any other flop you fold it, as I understand. Even on a drawheavy board with TPTK you rather C/F then bet out to protect your hand from draws.

If you don't want to play these flops, why call preflop anyway?

Just wondering, cause with this read on villain I have nearly always folded preflop whilst being OoP. I would even fold AK there probably, since your respect for him puts him on a 3bet range AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK.

Or is the most important issue here the call from villain 2? I understand it gives you better odds, and relatively you are IP, but I still prefer folding over calling...

Please enlighten me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Split Suit]

a bare Q flop is much better here. Q85r is nice. i can b/f i need to there. this board is very put together, and all i beat is AK/TT. how r u not seeing this board texture? (i mean i come from an Omaha background, but srsly, is this not obvious?)

[Genz]

The preflop call is marginal, because you are sandwiched between two aggressive players while you know that the solid one certainly has a very decent hand and the other one will maneuver you into sticky situations because he likes to shove so much. The hand isn't suited so you can't expect to play a big flushdraw. People tend to get married to AK, AQ preflop just as they get married to AA, KK postflop. I don't think a fold is terrible here, because of the problems you can expect to face postflop. But the pot is pretty big and you can be sure to win some money if you hit hard. But I'd rather have a small or medium PP here.
And another point: even if the solid player's reraising range is only AA, KK, AK, he can have AA in three ways, KK in 6 ways and AK in twelve ways. So he is more likely to have AK than AA if he reraises with all of them. But with AK he is now only drawing to 3 outs. So OP should actually NOT want to push him off of it since he might stack him when an A comes. When his read on the lag is right on, he doesn't have much either. So OP can call and reevaluate on the turn here, since his hand has more than enough equity against both villains' ranges.

[tw0please]

We call not because we think we have 1/6 chance of flopping the nuts or close to it; we call because we have top pair outs against QQ, KK, AK as well as the chance of flopping 2 pair, trips, or a broadway straight and most importantly when we DO flop a monster (2pair+) we are probably stacking one or both of these villains. Folding pf for 6 BB when our AQo has 24.4% equity against a range of QQ+/AK and when a donk is in the hand is burning money.

Also, I agree with Genz on the flop play, I like a call here as well simply because we are ahead a good % of the time and we are getting great pot odds.

[Split Suit]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, folding AQ here w/o a bet is a pretty weak line in my opinion. AQ hitting Q high flop is as good as it gets. Just throw 11 in the pot and it makes our life a lot easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that c/f TPTK here is a very weak line...but i think it might b best (and obviously if i knew what was best, i wudnt b posting it here). however, if we CBet, we cant stand any heat on a raise (from either player really), and are also in a really odd spot if we get flat called by TAGgro (which allows Spew to come along with great odds).

just things to keep in mind

[Genz]

And with reevaluation in meant: we need to think about TAG's range on the turn if he bets again. Will he 2barrel into 2 players with AK only? Probably not. Se he is more likely to have AA, KK, QQ and us in very bad shape. And we need to look at the turn card and LAG obv.

I think a c/c on the flop is good, because this is probably one of these spots where you can really say "only better hands will call", as AK is the only worse hand that he is likely to have and we don't want to push out that exact one hand.

the LAG in the hand makes things a little more difficult. But he didn't c/r so we are probably way ahead of him, too, unless he just started slowplaying sets or 2pairs...

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]

push or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you push:If you think TAG 3bets something decent, TT-AA, AK, maybe AQ, you are ahead of AK and TT, and when he calls he probably does not have AK, AQ or TT. If he folds you win $37 and if he calls you lose $48. This is assuming Spewtank folds and not estimating equity of suckouts. I wonder how much this simplification cripples the calculations...?

AA x 3 = -144
KK x 6 = -288
QQ x 1 = -48
JJ x 3 = -144
TT x 6 = +222
AK x 12 = +444
AQ x 6 = +222
Total +264 if the numbers were correct, so you would make 7 dollas more by pushing than folding. But if you take TT and AQ out of his 3betting range, you are getting killed when you push.

In real life spewtard calls your push with AT and hits his straight, naturally.

[jk1986]

Fold pre- calling his 3bet with 67s would be better (but i still wouldn't do it). Fact is you catch a great flop and still don't know where you stand.

[Split Suit]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre- calling his 3bet with 67s would be better (but i still wouldn't do it). Fact is you catch a great flop and still don't know where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i catch on OK flop. the texture is all bad. and i dont think AQ is in villians 3b range pf...does that change anything for anyone?

[hunt1897]

Look at your OP, think, what would a tag re-raise with, what does he have, if you think about it, pre-flop fold is easy with AQ. As Played, Push.

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at your OP, think, what would a tag re-raise with, what does he have, if you think about it, pre-flop fold is easy with AQ. As Played, Push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought process please.

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, folding AQ here w/o a bet is a pretty weak line in my opinion. AQ hitting Q high flop is as good as it gets. Just throw 11 in the pot and it makes our life a lot easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that c/f TPTK here is a very weak line...but i think it might b best (and obviously if i knew what was best, i wudnt b posting it here). however, if we CBet, we cant stand any heat on a raise (from either player really), and are also in a really odd spot if we get flat called by TAGgro (which allows Spew to come along with great odds).

just things to keep in mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I mean your situation is not really great here on the flop. You're forced to make a tough decision either way. But if you put in 11, it becomes REALLY clear what to do on later streets.

Calling the flop would be pretty bad IMO. And a push is just spew.

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]

Also I think those who are saying the pfrr would fold KK to a shove are giving a player with tight stats way too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. And villian TagAggo isn't even that tight -_-'

P.S for OP- your post was very well posted and also interesting for discussion purposes. I really think the EV is marginal on the flop.

[hunt1897]

Thought process is if we call in this situation, what more could we hope for. Tag's hand has not changed and this is the best flop we could hope for. Ageeed, push is spew, as played we must push. Do we fold after hitting the flop??

[Split Suit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also I think those who are saying the pfrr would fold KK to a shove are giving a player with tight stats way too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. And villian TagAggo isn't even that tight -_-'

P.S for OP- your post was very well posted and also interesting for discussion purposes. I really think the EV is marginal on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

thnx. im just tryyin to get ppl to think about the hand different from their standard ABC style. (which is hard to do without coming off as aggressive and rude). i didnt think push was spew perse...but it didnt seem to b a great play overall. hence why i posted it.

(and rake...plz srsly think about why my bettin of $11 is the same as checking. its bizzare...but think about it and see if u understand it. lemme kno if u understand what im sayyin)

[VPIP100]

I think the real decision is preflop here:

You call, hit big, and win a small pot.

You call, hit big, lose a huge pot.

Or you dont hit anything at all.

I think calling preflop is -EV, especially OOP. Id rather call (has already been said) with SC's and PP's.

Because if you put him on AA/KK/QQ/AK you can't like any board except QQx or KJT.

I dont like it, I fold pre with this read and range.

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought process is if we call in this situation, what more could we hope for. Tag's hand has not changed and this is the best flop we could hope for. Ageeed, push is spew, as played we must push. Do we fold after hitting the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

If you agree that a push is spew, why the hell are we pushing?

[rakes.a.beach]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also I think those who are saying the pfrr would fold KK to a shove are giving a player with tight stats way too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I understand that his only three-betting range we're beating is 99, TT, AK, AJ. We're losing to JJ, QQ, AA, KK. We tie AQ.


Thank you. And villian TagAggo isn't even that tight -_-'

P.S for OP- your post was very well posted and also interesting for discussion purposes. I really think the EV is marginal on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

thnx. im just tryyin to get ppl to think about the hand different from their standard ABC style. (which is hard to do without coming off as aggressive and rude). i didnt think push was spew perse...but it didnt seem to b a great play overall. hence why i posted it.

(and rake...plz srsly think about why my bettin of $11 is the same as checking. its bizzare...but think about it and see if u understand it. lemme kno if u understand what im sayyin)

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, so if villian was really a thinking player, I guess he'd check behind all the hands we beat. In gerenal, 50 NL players don't think this much.

So yes, I understand what you're saying and agree with you. though i don't give 50NLers so much credit

[prodonkey]

AQ oop to a 3 bet is just bad.. even more so with another guy in the pot.. if you hit your ace u don't know if you're ahead.. if u hit your Q u don't know if you're ahead.. suited I will call a lot more often.. unsuited I will fold preflop quite often. Maybe your experience is different than mine.. but I very rarely get 3 bet light.. so if you put his range on something like JJ+ and AK I just don't see the point in calling prelfop.

[0evg0]

dunno why this thread has so many posts

fold preflop, but it's not a disastrous call

doing anything but folding this flop is hilariously bad.

I PUT HIM ON AK!

....AND THE OTHER GUY TOO.

[SoulPower]

Fold preflop for this exact reason. Your going to continually find yourself in these difficult spots OOP. You flopped TPTK and still are don't know what to do.

[boycalledroy]

This is such a simple fold preflop I don't understand the discussion. Called w/ AQ last night to a Btn 3bet off a guy who was 25/15, flop came AQx, I bet, he called, I bet turn on a blank, he puhed, I called, he flopped over AA.

AQ does not work in a 3bet pot ever. If they have KK and it comes A high you are screwed, if they have AA/KK/AK and it comes QQx a decent player will smell something and get the hell out.

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
dunno why this thread has so many posts

fold preflop, but it's not a disastrous call

doing anything but folding this flop is hilariously bad.

I PUT HIM ON AK!

....AND THE OTHER GUY TOO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I've actually said that to myself before.. lol

[Check_The_Nuts]

I would sandwich taggro here with a bet on the flop, trying to squeeze him out. You can't really check/call even if he bets, dummy folds. If the flop gets checked through, and it goes to the turn your good like 90% of the time, but hopefully the tag knows not to let that happen very often.

A lot of this hinges on how good the tag and how bad the spew guy are. If the spew-guy will peel the flop with a bunch of trash, and the tag knows that, then checking is obviously best because it forces the tag to turn his hand faceup. However if spewtank is something like 70% fold, then he's gunna bet AK/AQ/KK/AA.

Btw: someone said earlier if villians range is AK/AA/KK, well obviously if thats his range preflop you should fold. Your hand is terrible against that range.

Basically IMO your hand only beats bluffs from the TAG but beats most of the spewtank's calling range. So I would just bet out to see if the tag beats me, and for value for the spewtank.