NL50 - KK on A high flop

[Nibster]

Villian is a decent player, 25/15/1.5 after 100 hands.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
6 Players
Lego Poker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/)

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.75, 6 Players)
UTG folds, MP raises to $1.75, CO folds, BTN folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $5.50, MP calls $3.75

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($11.25, 2 Players)
Hero checks, MP checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($11.25, 2 Players)
Hero bets $7, MP calls $7

<font color="black">River:</font> A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($25.25, 2 Players)
Hero bets $11, MP folds
Uncalled bet of $11 returned to Hero

Pot Size: $25.25 ($1.25 Rake)

[crushednuts]

I might check/call the river instead of leading out. I like to check to induce a bluff and lose the minimum if he has the ace. He might think you were repping the ace on the turn and value bet JJ etc. Here he can just let it go. I think a check on the river earns the maximum

[Sir Winalot]

I would 3-bet to at least 6 because we're oop.

Your postflop line is fine in a 3-bet pot. I don't think villain would call with many worse hands if we bet the flop. I don't have any problem with giving villain a free go at 2 outs in here and there's not really any draws he could have so checking flop is good. If he bets the flop I would usually call but I'm probably folding to another barrel at the turn.

I would usually bet slightly more on the turn as played. Something like 8-10 sounds about right. The river card wasn't the prettiest in the deck, but I would still bet here because I think villain checks behind with many hands we beat. He might be scared we have a slowplayed Ax or whatever. I probably bet more like 15ish there.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Check call river and let him value bet his jacks or tens or whatever

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
Check call river and let him value bet his jacks or tens or whatever

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think a decent player v-bets these hands very often here? In my experience he will call our bet far more often than bet himself.

[monkeymaps]

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Check call river and let him value bet his jacks or tens or whatever

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think a decent player v-bets these hands very often here? In my experience he will call our bet far more often than bet himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed OP should be the one VB here.
Think this was well played from OOP

[CanYouDigIt]

[ QUOTE ]

I would 3-bet to at least 6 because we're oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the additional $0.50 make a difference? I like the idea of raising more OOP like you said but had more in mind if I were to do so

[Sir Winalot]

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I would 3-bet to at least 6 because we're oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the additional $0.50 make a difference? I like the idea of raising more OOP like you said but had more in mind if I were to do so

[/ QUOTE ]
At least 6 means 6 or more.

[CanYouCallThis]

Why would you want to make the pot bigger when you are OoP? I would prefer to make the pot big when being IP.

I like your lines BTW, QQ/JJ/TT would call that more often then bet out themselves.

[rakes.a.beach]

stake sizes?

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
The river card wasn't the prettiest in the deck

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Villain is less likely to have an ace, and he is less likely to believe we have an ace when he has a pair.

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to make the pot bigger when you are OoP? I would prefer to make the pot big when being IP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you want to win the pot already preflop, and if you don't you want to charge him a good price to get to the flop and start messing with us in position. We have the best hand so more money into the pot = better.

I don't get this pot control thing. I just don't. Seems like many people think that pot control is always the priority #1, I can't make myself agree with that. Plus raising $1 less or more hardly makes pot that much different sized that pot control becomes of importance. I think pot control is more about betting or checking (on later streets) than betting a bit more or a bit less.

[Genz]

When you hold KK preflop, there is no pot control. Jam it. If you are oop, you want to make sure that villain does not get good odds to call to draw out on you. It has nothing to do with pot control. You actually try to get it all-in. You are almost always ahead here, so get in as much money as you can.

I like the postflop line. I bet more on the turn, though. It looks very weak. Since villain's stats are pretty passive, I bet the river myself. I don't make it very big. I want to balance between a block and a value bet.

[corsakh]

3bet pre and bet flop.

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet pre and bet flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He did 3bet preflop and I can see few good reasons to bet this flop. He is either way ahead or way behind. The only reason would be protection against a flushdraw... So. Care to elaborate?

[eigenvalue]

Not betting the A on the flop is terrible! Generally, with any pair, if there appears only one overcard on the flop, bet it to represent TP. Checking in these situations gives you no information where you are and looks very weak most times.

[Genz]

I agree that you shouldn't check everytime you have a PP and an A comes, because that is easily to be exploited. So check with your AK from time to time too or do this with KK only rarely. But how could villain call without an A here on a drawless board (except the flushdraw, which is the only reason for me to bet here), unless he is a calling station with his PPs?

It would be nice to be in position here, though. Another reason to bet. But what's your plan if he minraises us? if he makes a real raise? Give me your reasons for your bets and tell me how you react to resistance.

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
Not betting the A on the flop is terrible! Generally, with any pair, if there appears only one overcard on the flop, bet it to represent TP. Checking in these situations gives you no information where you are and looks very weak most times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want to represent TP?

If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything.

"looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time?

[RoyalMag]

[ QUOTE ]

If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this in so many ways that I cant bothered to type them out.

[Genz]

You should.

a) It's crap to just come along and say "YOU'RE WRONG!!! DO YOU SEE WHY!"
b) jimpo is pretty much dead on, imo and I've given various reasons why. You gave none.

[jimpo]

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If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this in so many ways that I cant bothered to type them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please be bothered, it's not that much more of an effort than what you already did.

I do not in any way claim to be any kind of poker guru, but that's how my thinking goes, if you see holes in it I would love to hear you point them out.

[RoyalMag]

[ QUOTE ]
You should.

a) It's crap to just come along and say "YOU'RE WRONG!!! DO YOU SEE WHY!"
b) jimpo is pretty much dead on, imo and I've given various reasons why. You gave none.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say he was wrong, I said I disagreed. Give me a few mins and Ill reply with my resaons.

[RoyalMag]

[ QUOTE ]

If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker.

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If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Edited because i misread the hand. My bad.

[ QUOTE ]

The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I said before you are betting for info. But also pot control.

[ QUOTE ]

"looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here.

[jimpo]

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If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker.

[ QUOTE ]

If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Edited because i misread the hand. My bad.

[ QUOTE ]

The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I said before you are betting for info. But also pot control.

[ QUOTE ]

"looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this in so many ways that I cant bothered to type them out.

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[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]

Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

But he won't fold it. I think your fold equity on a ragged board like this against someone with an A is close to zero. And he won't raise against you as the preflop raiser with a weak A. So the info you are getting is close to zero, too: he could be calling with an weak A or a PP or something. You gained no info that is worth a few bucks.

[ QUOTE ]

But you dont know that he doesnt have TP, so you bet for info. By checking behind after reraising preflop you are basically announcing to him that you have a lower pp and are scared of the Ace (I know this isnt always the case). Most opponents will then put a fair sized bet in on the turn whether they have the ace or not, as the villain did here. So what do you do since you have no idea what he has?


[/ QUOTE ]
See above for the part about information. The thing I bolded: Hero bet the turn from oop. Because OP showed weakness on the flop, it is less likely that villain will put him on an A and call him with smaller PPs. Because hero raised preflop, he won't be inclined to bluff-raise him without an A, since hero could be slowplaying AK or something. Moreover, the bet serves as a blocker against a small A.

[ QUOTE ]

No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain has no A here (and no flushdraw - reason to bet for me, see above), he is drawing very thin. 2-5 outs. That gives us huge equity in the pot. Moreover we only have 2 more streets of betting to go so we controlled the size of the pot and get value from our hand by showing some weakness.

I have to put out a reminder: all this doesn't mean you should always check the flop with KK when an A hits. It has to be a part of a balanced strategy, including a check with AK or AQ here sometimes or betting often with KK here. At least against thinking regulars. And don't forget about the flushdraw...

[RoyalMag]

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I disagree with this in so many ways that I cant bothered to type them out.

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Touche! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jimpo]

Could not resist the temptation /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
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If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

If your plan is to keep bluffing villains off pairs of aces when they raised their ace preflop and called a 3bet, in NL50, I think it will not be too profitable.

[ QUOTE ]

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If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Edited because i misread the hand. My bad.

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The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I said before you are betting for info. But also pot control.



[/ QUOTE ]

Betting close to 20% of your remaining stack "for info" = WTF?
Betting close to 20% of your remaining stack with KK on A high flop "for pot control" = WTF?

[ QUOTE ]

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"looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not the only time. Looking weak when you have a non-monster hand that has your opponent drawing close to dead is acceptable also. Without the flush draw, this would be very likely here.

[nukewell]

sometimes i think u shold bet the flop, but depends on your image and c/bet tendancies

i dont think betting the flop is the only way to get info here as by checking the flop and being checked behind not only does it keep the pot down it also indicates the villian hasnt hit it either

if a 3rd sapde hit i would probly c/c the river, but i like the value bet on the river here as the A will induce a call by mid pairs, all in all i like your line

[monkover]

Nice discussion going on here! I agree that you should def raise a little more preflop, you want to take the pot down and there is no such thing as pot control with KK oop preflop. I´d bet about 7ish.
Villain probably has a smaller pp or maybe he had the fd. I think your line was the right way to play it. If the turn was a spade I would have def slowed down!
I´d also check the river. this way you may induce a bluff. The cards he´d call your river bet with would usually beat you and if he has a hand like TT he might even bet them for value.

[Daniel LeClaire]

I like betting the flop. I know a lot of guys like to check because our hand has 'showdown value', but either you are ahead or you aren't. If you're going to check and call a bet you might as well just bet. You are making it harder on yourself by checking IMO.

As you move up and encounter more aggressive players you are just asking to have the pot stolen. Once you check call the flop and check turn they will just keep firing. How often will you have AK or better there? Not as often as you have a pair that is scared of the A.

[corsakh]

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3bet pre and bet flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He did 3bet preflop and I can see few good reasons to bet this flop. He is either way ahead or way behind. The only reason would be protection against a flushdraw... So. Care to elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I missed he 3bet pre.
Checking Ace high flop in position after 3betting pre, is always like opening your hand face up. Unless of course your 3bet range is wild. Considering most 3bets in micros are from premium hands, please tell me what hand that 3bets preflop checks the following flops behind:

1) A high.
2) K or Q high.
3) Rag board.

Add to this scenarios how connected or monotone the board is and acehud stats - you can deduce opponents hand to 1 or 2 holdings like 80% of the time. There are other reasons of course, namely metagame ones.

[boycalledroy]

I really don't like the check on the flop, you 3bet pre and say "MUAHAHAHA I HAVE A MONSTOR" then you check the flop. What exactly do you do if the villain makes a PSB here? In a 3-bet pot I will be betting this if the preflop raisor checks to me almost every single time. I will be making you throw away a big hand, probably the best.

3 betting range is small at micro limits - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ. If I see an ace on the flop in a 3bet pot the cash is going in almost always. This is why I always bet out. If they are making a play for the hand they have to bet _really_ big and risk a lot to take it from me.

I agree if you get called it puts you into a bad spot. Trying to play KK oop on an Ace high flop ain't easy street though.

Would you be c/r or bet/3betting with AA/AK/AQ on this flop? If every 3 bet pot you play transparently better players will exploit you.

[catfish_01]

I like this discussion; seems to cover alot of the more tricky situations that are hard to think through as a beginner.