Truly I am the master of subtlety

[Gustav]

Just a quick line check.

Hands played at different tables within the first orbit of sitting down. Zero reads or stats. Comments?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($143.70)
Hero ($100)
UTG ($105.05)
MP ($46.35)
Button ($224.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $99</font>



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($39)
SB ($47.05)
BB ($54.40)
UTG ($41.25)
MP ($67.90)
Hero ($100)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, Button calls $4, SB calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($13) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $8</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $96</font>

[kayfish77]

i kind of hate them both for different reasons :&lt;.

[Gustav]

Yea, they're not supposed to be particularly similar, just not really worth a thread each. Would you care to elaborate though?

[avfletch]

Hand 1 I think you can make a more moderate raise here. Calling sucks because you price in the kind of hand that stacks you when you hit but shoving this much into this small a pot seems a little ott.

Hand 2 looks good although I'd probably have just lead out.

PS: I loled on seeing the first hand after reading the title /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Acein8ter]

Sure is subtle play there... Do you push AI PF everytime w/AA/KK?

[Xanta]

Hand 2 is good, use your FE against the shorty in the best way you can.

Hand 1 is WTF with full stacks. It's pretty freakin obvious to anyone with a clue what you have here, and while you're flipping with everything besides sets, could you not just make a smaller raise here? Also with 4 people on the flop, calling might not be awful to try to entice those behind you to come along.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 is good, use your FE against the shorty in the best way you can.

Hand 1 is WTF with full stacks. It's pretty freakin obvious to anyone with a clue what you have here, and while you're flipping with everything besides sets, could you not just make a smaller raise here? Also with 4 people on the flop, calling might not be awful to try to entice those behind you to come along.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not keen on a call here. Do we really want to entice people to come along when one of the most interested hands will be Axs?

[takingcontrol]

big overbet in hand one, I'd have bet closer to the pot back at him. I cant think that his reaction could have been much different - though your push has big hand all over it.
would it be totally incorrect to encourage action in this hand ? It's not likely Villian has any real piece of this flop and we've got 15 clean-ish outs (OESFD) plus another 2 - possible outs. While pushing gives us alot of FE, are there any more positive EV plays available ?

pardon the newbie question, I'm just curious as to the best value you can get for this hand.

[jk1986]

WTF, both are retarded. Play donkaments if you like flipping.

[Brian O'Nolan]

hand 1 w/e I guess with no reads, if you make a standard raise a brick turn is kinda tough. I really dislike hand 2, why aren't you leading?

[kayfish77]

hand 1 sucks because i think you're folding out a ton of hands and the problem is you have more equity than just about everything. even 2 pair is going to have to think before calling, so the actual hand range that calls you here is pretty low which kind of wastes the hand. plus its an unraised pot so there's a very little chance he's going to continute he has 7 dollars invested. id make it like 30 or something.

hand 2 is kinda bad cuz if u get called ur ace isnt an out and this flop hit a ton of hands and its kind of obvious what you're doing if theyre thinking players.

[Antinome]

Hand 1 you want to maximize EV, not fold equity.

First consider fold equity. The probability of a fold as a function of bet size is an S-Shaped curve, where low bets of all sorts are called by all sorts of hands, then at some point the probability rises fast as other draws and TP hands dump. It starts to flatten out when most overpairs dump. A little bit later AA,KK dump. Then the curve flattens out a lot, it costs to fold out two pair. To fold out sets is nearly impossible.

Where does your bet fall? I'd guess right up near two-pair land. Is that EV optimum? I suspect not. I would be looking to bet something that TT would dump, but AA would call. I suspect that's close to pot. The logic is that I don't want to bet so much that when I get called I'm an underdog for an extra-large pot that overwhelms the FE+dead money part of the equation.

Player dependant of course. Some people will see a bet like this as 'always a draw' and your FE will drop. A good way to guess what Villian will think about your action is to look at Villian's behaviour. He assumes you play like he plays. So if he pushes draws, don't push! If he pushes the nuts, pushing is fine.

Hand two is completely different. He's a short-stack, and you have ~12 outs, 24% to hit on the turn, he's giving you direct odds to call a 27% to hit hand, so with implied odds, a one time call is meh. OTOH, you are 48% to make it by the river, so you only need 3% FE or so to make this cool, and I think that's no problem. You want more to cover KQ,66 hands, but I'd be surprised if your FE was less than 10%. Your overbet here is cool, because you are telling him you would bet that much if he had this much, without risking anything. It pushes the FE up the virtual, imaginary part of the FE/Bet curve just a little bit, and I like that as a psychological trick.

[Doug Funnie II]

SICK for metagame

[Reef]

I like the 1st hand WAY better than the 2nd. good if used sparingly. maybe do that with a set against him as well.

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF, both are retarded. Play donkaments if you like flipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's the other way around.
Conserve chips in tournaments and be wary of flips in the early stages. However, in cash games you can and should push the smallest of edges because you are 'immortal'.

The only thing worse than arrogant [censored] is arrogant [censored] who get it all wrong. What OP got wrong in these hands is the massive overbets, not his eagerness to 'flip'.

(hand 1 is not all that bad, hand 2 sucks)

[Pirelli]

In hand 1 I just make a standard raise. You don't mind if he calls because you are a favourite in the hand and can check the turn if you miss.

Hand 2 I would lead out. Once the shortstack bets your only option is AI although I doubt he is folding any hands.

[matrix]

Hand 1 is genius - I like it. You get called by AA KK QQ 78 and sets and you're ahead of that range, if you wait till the turn and it bricks your equity plummets - as it's a first orbit hand you might well get read for a bluff and get called looser than that as well.

Hand 2 not so great. Given that he's short you've essentially raised pot and are offering 2:1 odds and get called here lots while you're a dog.

[takingcontrol]

Antinome, great post explained alot.

[Sigurd]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF, both are retarded. Play donkaments if you like flipping.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF!!!!!

Hand 1:
We are actually have 48% against sets and two pairs, so showing isn't totally outragous, since it is pretty close to neutral EV with the 2$ already in the pot. However, I'm not sure it is the optimal play.
If people put us on a draw, they will call us with pretty much any pair, which we are ahead of, since we have a OESFD, but I can't really figure out if it is better to make a more moderate raise.


Hand 2:
If you haven't noticed, the villains are shortstacked, and there are an amount equaling 1/4 their stack already in the pot. Even if villain is calling with pretty much any piece of the flop, it isn't -EV. With folding equity, we are earning money on the push.
I would lead out, but I'm not violantly objected to a check-raise, since we are representing a monster, and aren't actually giving anything away by seeing a turn.

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WTF, both are retarded. Play donkaments if you like flipping.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF!!!!!

Hand 1:
We are actually have 48% against sets and two pairs, so showing isn't totally outragous, since it is pretty close to neutral EV with the 2$ already in the pot. However, I'm not sure it is the optimal play.


[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, it is obviously far from optimal and therefore WTF. And as you say it is neutral EV, and a flip when called. Pretty much explains my statement.

As for the other dude, I do agree that donkaments aren't won by getting into coinflips, although they are won be winning coinflips. Fact. QQ vs AK late in a tourney is a going all in, whereas in cash this just isn't the case. Meh. I only meant that you see a lot more coinflips in tournies than cash, and you seem to have taken it as me liking the OP play more in tournies /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WTF, both are retarded. Play donkaments if you like flipping.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF!!!!!

Hand 1:
We are actually have 48% against sets and two pairs, so showing isn't totally outragous, since it is pretty close to neutral EV with the 2$ already in the pot. However, I'm not sure it is the optimal play.


[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, it is obviously far from optimal and therefore WTF. And as you say it is neutral EV, and a flip when called. Pretty much explains my statement.

As for the other dude, I do agree that donkaments aren't won by getting into coinflips, although they are won be winning coinflips. Fact. QQ vs AK late in a tourney is a going all in, whereas in cash this just isn't the case. Meh. I only meant that you see a lot more coinflips in tournies than cash, and you seem to have taken it as me liking the OP play more in tournies /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright maybe I was a bit quick on the trigger. I just get annoyed when I see posts like yours in microstakes. I'm sure you could be more helpful.

Antinome,
Very good post. The analysis of the first hand is spot on. Second I dont know. In general I find that I have very little fold equity against shorties.

Matrix,
AA, KK, QQ is very unlikely in this hand.

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 you want to maximize EV, not fold equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really loled hard when I read this /images/graemlins/wink.gif nh

[Sneds9]

Hand 1 - is ok. I don't think i would ever push my whole stack in though, what happened to playing poker? I would probably attempt to build a bit of a pot, because we're in position and we can consider his actions each street.

Hand 2 - I absolutely hate, people use the term FE far too much, this is the hand from my perpective:

Oh damn, I have the nut flush draw and he hasn't given me the odds to call it. Because I can't lay down a FD with no odds, I'm going to raise it up and I'll have tons of FE, making the play alright...

But then again, I'm not a fan of raising up raggy aces from the cutoff, so take it as me being nitty if you want.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I hate both, would have raised in both cases to more reasonable/less retarded amounts. If I had to chose between the two, I think hand 1&gt;hand 2, but its pretty close. Problem with hand 2 is AK and KQ probably don't fold that often to the overshove. So you usually have just 9 outs rather than 12....

btw, I doubt even the biggest donks will lead out like that in hand 1 with AA/KK. Maybe at 25NL, but I doubt at 100.

[Ap0calypse]

Hand 1: Why are people even thinking of over pairs in this unraised pot...he probably has TPTK / TP and Gutshot. This all-in is just folding out a hand that we always ahead of.

Hand 2: You only have flush outs, I don't think the FE is good enough to make this +EV at all...lead flop though.