uNL Vote: Call 4xBB raise from EP with PPs? [Archive]

boycalledroy

03-27-2007, 12:52 PM

I'm calling both the unknown and the 40/2 guy because thier ranges are small to raise from UTG+1 in general. The 40/2 guy probably has AA/KK, and I treat each unknown as a good card player until otherwise.

The guys with 20% PFR are doing this with various pocket pairs and you can sommetimes get them to laydown a hand preflop. If he has control of the hand you have to play fit or fold postflop!

VPIP100

03-27-2007, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you 3 betting?" Just for the sake of it?

Call yo. Implied odds and position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call everytime, especially IP.

I would rather reraise OOP.

kaz2107

03-27-2007, 12:53 PM

3betting light while in position is good for ur game. u have a piss ton of FE on the flop and will often take down the pot with a cbet when tha fish auto put u on KK+ and they check fold.

ur hand is also super disguised if u do hit a set u can get payed off well.

it is good metagame as people see u as more a crazy ass thus will pay u off more.

u get paided off more when u do have QQ+ cuz people wont give u as much respekt for ur 3bets.

prolly some other stuff that i am forgetting too. basically 3 betting is good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

EMc

03-27-2007, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3betting light while in position is good for ur game. u have a piss ton of FE on the flop and will often take down the pot with a cbet when tha fish auto put u on KK+ and they check fold.

ur hand is also super disguised if u do hit a set u can get payed off well.

it is good metagame as people see u as more a crazy ass thus will pay u off more.

u get paided off more when u do have QQ+ cuz people wont give u as much respekt for ur 3bets.

prolly some other stuff that i am forgetting too. basically 3 betting is good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

TBH I see it a lot in SSNL and its coming here were players are 3 betting just FFS. Calling here is much better IMO.

matrix

03-27-2007, 01:15 PM

3betting sucks in all of these spots cos we have no reads on.

a) postflop tendancies of villains in question
b) Heros image overall
c) recent table history

you need to take into a/c all of these to determine whether or not it's a good time to 3bet. 3betting with pp's IP is almost always spew I think.

I call all of the above - implied odds FTW.

Pokey

03-27-2007, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you 3 betting?" Just for the sake of it?

Call yo. Implied odds and position.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT: there's nothing tastier than having position on someone who doesn't realize until your river raise that he died on the flop. Your implied odds are spectacular and your folding equity is miniscule: let him fall madly in love with his overpair and die horribly on later streets.

kolotoure

03-27-2007, 01:38 PM

For those saying call. Are you 3-betting any hand here?

RAHZero

03-27-2007, 01:40 PM

3-betting here is bad, bad, BAD against an unknown or the 40/2, that much is for sure. 40/2's raising range is obv very tight, and you have huge implied odds to just call in position, and you have no idea what the unknown's raising range is, so again just call IP and look to play for set value / take the pot away if you think you can postflop. Against a 20/20, 3-betting has more merit, since he'll be raising a much wider range from EP and will be likely more willing to let it go postflop. 3-betting a 50/20 is better than 3-betting the unknown or the 40/2, but he's more likely to call your 3-bet and look you up postflop than the 20/20, and he's also the type of player that's likely to pay off your set postflop, so I'd take my implied odds and call against him as well.

[ QUOTE ]
For those saying call. Are you 3-betting any hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the 40/2, probably just QQ+. Against the unknown, TT+,AQs+,AKo is my standard, though by no means set in stone. Against a 20/20, my range is much wider, 22+,Axs,SCs, and some random other hands, though obviously I'm not raising most of those hands 100% of the time or anywhere close to it. 50/20 I'll raise the same range against an unknown, except I'll also raise lower PPs / worse aces (suited and unsuited), and sometimes KQs.

AusDerBunker

03-27-2007, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For those saying call. Are you 3-betting any hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hunch that my posting in the Brew started this poll (Im so full of myself) .... but I tend to go with the 3betting school.

Basically we are calling only for setvalue more or less ... and recently I have grown to believe that all the implied odds setvalue stuff is highly overrated.

There is nothing wrong in calling with position with the intent of getting sneaky, like Thac did with his 32s hand earlier today, but setvalue ... blah.

And yeah I know it, while i in many ways am not nitty, this is a spot where I am very nitty, Nitmeister FTW !

You can call for setvalue if villian is a nit too. If villian is not a nit, then likely his raising range is too wide to warrant a setvalue call, as he will not pay you off.

wiggs73

03-27-2007, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3betting sucks in all of these spots cos we have no reads on.

a) postflop tendancies of villains in question
b) Heros image overall
c) recent table history

you need to take into a/c all of these to determine whether or not it's a good time to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT right here guys, and it's why I voted call for all of them.

munkey

03-27-2007, 02:13 PM

I agree with Matrix and wiggs73 too.

3 betting is sometimes good and adds deception to our 3bet hands but I need reads to do this and this takes away some deception from when we call PFRs and furthermore 3betting small PPs vs xlooseys destroys our implied odds vs them.

StallionDL

03-27-2007, 02:16 PM

3 betting overinflates the pot. It's a lot easier to steal a small pot with your MP that all of the sudden doesn't look so hot after the flop IMO. The smaller pot gives you a lot more options depending on the flop.

VPIP100

03-27-2007, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3betting light while in position is good for ur game. u have a piss ton of FE on the flop and will often take down the pot with a cbet when tha fish auto put u on KK+ and they check fold.

ur hand is also super disguised if u do hit a set u can get payed off well.

it is good metagame as people see u as more a crazy ass thus will pay u off more.

u get paided off more when u do have QQ+ cuz people wont give u as much respekt for ur 3bets.

prolly some other stuff that i am forgetting too. basically 3 betting is good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This all combined doesnt make any sense, DUCY?

If they put you on KK+, they wont pay you off easily, contradiction.

Also, if they respect your 3-bets less they will 4-bet your light 3-bets and you have to fold.

Calling is superior, as I said before

futuredoc85

03-27-2007, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3betting sucks in all of these spots cos we have no reads on.

a) postflop tendancies of villains in question
b) Heros image overall
c) recent table history

you need to take into a/c all of these to determine whether or not it's a good time to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT right here guys, and it's why I voted call for all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

matrix

03-27-2007, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For those saying call. Are you 3-betting any hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes JJ+ AK+ (LDO)

depending on reads (postflop reads that is - preflop reads are meh) I'll 3bet 54s-89s 67o-JTo and Axs.

I won't 3bet if I've been 3betting lots recently - if villain is a calling station and I don't have a good hand. I'm more inclined to 3bet if villain is W/T postflop (20/10 TAGs usually fit this quite well) or if my image is good (I've only been seen showing down goot hands up to now) and I haven't 3bet for a while.

I don't see the point of turning what is almost certainly the best hand preflop - into a bluff I almost never 3bet pp's - (tho I 4bet push with them vs a light 3bettor who 3bets with unpaired cards often all the time)

In general 3betting is way way waaaaaaaaaay over rated at uNL - loads of people seem to be 3betting cos all the cool kids are doing it - without knowing why in some spots in can be a good thing - and why you need to avoid it like the plague in other spots.

I think there approximately zero need to 3bet light at 10NL or lower - at 25 it's dubious that you'll find anyone that you can 3bet profitably - it starts to get useful in spots at 50NL - gets more useful at 100NL and is essential for 200NL.

If you inflate the potsize preflop without a good plan - all you are really doing is super inflating your variance I think.

kaz2107

03-27-2007, 08:26 PM

how do u guys play ur hands when u call with 77 here against n e of these villians? r u goin with tha idea of no set not bet or wut? wut if the board is Q52 rainbow and villian pots tha flop? r we callin? what about if we have an over pair and he pots tha flop?

3 betting works well here because the of how light most 3 bet. u have so much FE that it is insane. people feel extremely akward playin in these 3bet pots ESPECIALLY oop. id be willing to bet very few of the people n e of us sits with can play well against some one who 3bets light when we they r oop. thus makin this play profitable. sure calling and lookin to stack when we hit our set is fine. but 3betting here is better imo. and if it doesnt work out and we have to dump it on tha turn or river or whenever who cares. our image now changes for the better and we can use this idea later on. that is the contradiction that was pointed out.

when we do this and either get to showdown or bet fold or w/e, our image has just changed for tha better and we can now act accordingly to this and tighten up some.

but all i am sayin is untill u show other wise that u do this with less then like QQ+ or w/e then u have so much controll of tha hand. and people c/f sosososo much in this spot. thus u r winnin a 30ish bb pot here a ton which is always nice. and if we dont win tha pot it helps our image a ton and thus we can get payed off more efficiently later on.

matrix

03-27-2007, 08:48 PM

what I do on the flop usually depends on how aggro villain is postflop - how often they tend to CB - whether or not htey will fold to a flop raise - how often they'll dbl barrel the turn as well as CBing the flop if they whiffed and what exactly flops (in that order)

I make a ton of BB's calling in position - calling a flop bet and then leading a turn when it's checked to me. I tend to liberally raise (not minraise) LP opening villains on Broadway rag rag flops - they tend to fold quicker than origami black belts on meth...

I run 23/17 or thereabouts.

OOP I like 3betting more cos I want to steal momentum and have a bigger chance of winning it preflop - but even then I rarely 3bet pairs - they are hands that love the implieds so much turning them into bluffs is just a huge waste imo.

Depending on what style you play YMMV obv.

To 3bet any hand preflop with no read on how villain plays post is just FPS spew imo.

bsheck

03-27-2007, 09:07 PM

I flat call in all cases as well. Just play after the flop. The button is a huge advantage IF you know how to use it. You don't need to hit a set to win. For example, you can call a flop bet and then bet the turn if it's checked to you and pick up the pot most of the time.

kaz2107

03-27-2007, 09:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what I do on the flop usually depends on how aggro villain is postflop - how often they tend to CB - whether or not htey will fold to a flop raise - how often they'll dbl barrel the turn as well as CBing the flop if they whiffed and what exactly flops (in that order)

I make a ton of BB's calling in position - calling a flop bet and then leading a turn when it's checked to me. I tend to liberally raise (not minraise) LP opening villains on Broadway rag rag flops - they tend to fold quicker than origami black belts on meth...

I run 23/17 or thereabouts.

OOP I like 3betting more cos I want to steal momentum and have a bigger chance of winning it preflop - but even then I rarely 3bet pairs - they are hands that love the implieds so much turning them into bluffs is just a huge waste imo.

Depending on what style you play YMMV obv.

To 3bet any hand preflop with no read on how villain plays post is just FPS spew imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
wuts YMMV?!?!!? lol

as for playin without reads on villian post flop my feeling is that this idea (no good reads post flop) happens so often especially in threads in here. as we r often vacant of reads or not given very good/ very accurate reads to begin with. but my point is the normal donk at 50nl or lower can tell we r decent and kno wut we r doin. they can also realize with some extent that we dont raise any two cards and we dont 3bet all that often. so when they r out of position then tend to nit up and give us tons of credit for a hand. thus giving us great amounts of FE. people just play so damn awfull in 3bet flops oop imo that 3betting with a decent amount of regularity is +EV just in itself.

matrix

03-27-2007, 09:29 PM

Your Mileage May Vary.

I think 3betting pretty frequently is goot. don't get me wrong - I just *hate* doing it with pairs almost at all - and I can get a reasonable read on a villain in about 30 hands. Why 3bet people readless?

I think you are giving a "normal donk" too much credit - they mostly play their own hands and don't figure out whos good or not until after we show down the goods a few times.

Dr_Doctr

03-27-2007, 10:06 PM

Just about my earlier comments when I said call or 3-bet. I meant at least call. I can't think of any situation I would fold 77 on the button to a single raise without a *very* specific read. 3-betting is read or stats dependent. Obviously if a super-nit raises UTG on a full table etc. you're not coming over the top with a pair of 7s hoping to scare him out of the pot later, but you're damn well calling for set value. I tend to just flat call against unknowns but I like 3-betting too when I know the opponent and the advantages to that are pointed out well in this thread I think - lots of advantages to flat-calling too of course. Basically I love being on the button and having 77 /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Hope that is a little more definite than 'call or 3-bet'.

Drainbamaged

03-28-2007, 07:57 AM

Excuse a beginner, but does 20/20 imply VP$IP of 20%, all raises, or VP$IP of 40%, half raises?

K䲰䮥n

03-28-2007, 08:06 AM

Vol. $ Put In Pot % / Pre Flop Raise %

Sneds9

03-28-2007, 08:08 AM

I don't understand why the most folds have come from the 40/2 player. Surely that is the perfect player to be set mining against, because getting away from AA, KK is very hard and IF they are good enough to read you have a set, it'll take them a good sized bet on the flop and maybe one on the turn to work it out.

munkey

03-28-2007, 08:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Excuse a beginner, but does 20/20 imply VP$IP of 20%, all raises, or VP$IP of 40%, half raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

vpvip/pfr so 20/20 plays 20% of his hands and PreFlop Raises all of them or 3bets though...

I have a [maybe lameo] question from this - does the PFR figure include 3bets in PT, e.g. if villan opens UTG we 3bet on BTN does this hand count to the PFR %?

I'm more inclined to 3bet loose PFR with FE, fromwhat I hear absolute players fold to 3bets alot. On FT I often 3bet from blinds/BTN though not recently as much as I do MMV. On PTY I don't think 3betting most players with speculative hands is worthwile -you'll probably end up with 3 callers and get called with ace high to the river.

All about adjusting to the players @ the time IMHO.

Drainbamaged

03-28-2007, 08:20 AM

Thanks for the explanation.

jimpo

03-28-2007, 09:17 AM

The < 10% who fold should be spanked.

Sir Winalot

03-28-2007, 09:38 AM

I think calling is the correct answer to all of those without further reads. I do also think that folding isn't that good an idea against any of these villains with such implied odds.

I don't get why we should raise in any of these hands, ecpecially #2 and #4. Villain in #2 is 20/20 which means (as I've understood it) that he will never call our 3-bet. He will either shove or fold and I'm quite sure we're behind his 4-bet shoving range by a huge margin. 3-betting someone with pfr 2 with 77 is just insane.

ama0330

03-28-2007, 11:48 AM

I wouldnt 3bet here with 77 because it sort of stifles you postflop because you basically can't improve (I don't stake my winrate on two outers). Id much rather 3bet here with strong s/c's and broadway, or total garbage. I figure if youre going to turn your hand into a bluff, why not make it a bluff in the first place.

FWIW 3betting a dude with 2% pfr with anything less than the nuts is pretty dumb.

Also, this whole thread is very, very opponent specific, and I dont just mean stats but also willingness to stack off with mid strength hands, willingness to shut down to aggression postflop etc etc.

Big Poppa Smurf

03-28-2007, 12:01 PM

In general, 3betting preflop here in position with small pairs as your standard play is not good. Sir Winalot a 20/20 is going to call the 3bet a lot and with much better pairs than you as well, I don't know where you're getting this shove or fold thing from.

Lordy

03-28-2007, 12:07 PM

I call pretty much every time. I don't see the value in 3-betting mid-low pocket pairs.
56s-JTs are much better for "bluff" 3-betting imo, because draws work much better than underpairs for bluffing post-flop.

[ QUOTE ]
...Villain in #2 is 20/20 which means (as I've understood it) that he will never call our 3-bet. He will either shove or fold and I'm quite sure we're behind his 4-bet shoving range by a huge margin.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually wrong. A 20/20 can call 3-bets 100% of the time and still be a 20/20.
VPIP% obviously stays the same, and PFR%... well he raised in the first place, didn't he ?

EMc

03-28-2007, 12:11 PM

ama just hit another major point square on the head:

3 betting turns this hand into a bluff.

Archon_Wing

03-28-2007, 02:15 PM

One thing to note is that even if we stack villain EVERY time in this situation with a set using 100 bb stacks, it will not be profitable as we are investing more than 10% of our stack to do this. The only way this can be profitable is if they're willing to fold preflop. At uNL, people rarely fold when they raise as they don't raise with much-- always a hand that will be even or better than us. Another possibility is that we follow up with a large continuation bet even if we don't hit. However, even the really tight players at unl may not let go of their AK or whatever postflop. I can only hope you like variance as you will be putting a lot of money with probaly an underpair and of course it will only work on various villains. You cannot rely simply on preflop stats. The stat "folds to continuation bet" is obviously useful, but the dynamics change in a raised pot. People fight for bigger pots, obviously.

If stacks are deeper, then this could work but even the silliest opponents might think twice about shoving 300 bb with an overpair.

The other reason is metagame. Maybe people will see you as crazy when they know you've 3-bet 77, but then of course these things aren't that important at micro stakes either.

So basically, this kind of move should be used sparingly, preferrably with large stacks against opponents that are very "fit or fold" postflop. In most cases in uNl, it's just spew. We must avoid the "ZOMG I 3-bet with crap u fold LOLOLOL" mentality. Bankroll > ego.