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View Full Version : NL10 mid PPs makes second pair

juanepr
03-26-2007, 02:47 PM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($8.35)
MP ($21.55)
CO ($9.95)
Hero ($10.35)
SB ($3.20)
BB ($6.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.10, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $0.5</font>, Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP folds.

Flop: ($1.25) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $1.1</font>, Hero ?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($12)
BB ($10.35)
UTG ($9.40)
MP ($7.90)
CO ($16.45)
Button ($8.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $0.5</font>, Hero calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40.

Flop: ($1.50) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $0.8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.2</font>, BB folds, Button calls $1.40.

Turn: ($5.90) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ?

I find myself in these situations quite a bit. Both villians in these hands are around 12/4, so these flops usually do no hit them. However, post flop they find it hard to let go of hands. I am unsure of how to play these hands without turning them into bluffs.

Hand #1
I re-raise preflop with JJ+. Is it better to call and revaluate or do I raise him here? What is our plan for the turn?

Hand #2
My re-raise was called. Do I give up? If not, what's the plan.


Thanks!
zaephyr
03-26-2007, 02:54 PM
Given pfr of villians fold both on flop.

oard: 7s 4d Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.612% 61.57% 01.04% 175548 2970.00 { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 1: 37.388% 36.35% 01.04% 103632 2970.00 { 99 }


The way u played 2nd hand u need to bet turn, this is an excelent card for u, i doubt villian had fd and he might put you on overpair/fd/pair of tens on flop.
catfish_01
03-26-2007, 02:57 PM
Hand 1: I would fold this flop against an unknown. If you are calling that raise you are probably playing for set equity. Since you cold-called the raise and he bet into you, you are in the dark. A 3-bet preflop might be a good play to regain your positional advantage. If you had 3-bet pf, villian smooth called, you would be much better off on the flop. If villian still bets into you, on this board, you could be even more comfortable folding; but if he checked to you, a c-bet might pick up the pot.

Hand 2: Again, against an unknown, I don't think it's a good spot for this play. You have a big pot on the turn, in the dark, without a great hand; not a good spot for you.
boycalledroy
03-26-2007, 03:00 PM
Fold them and play your big hands for value. These are not your big hands imo.

TpTk+ go broke on.
Machavelli
03-26-2007, 03:04 PM
Hand 1:
I re-raise and see what happens. If unimproved I'm not putting more money in the pot. Sometimes I'm going to smooth call and try and fire on a blank turn.

Hand 2: I check turn and fold to any bet.
catfish_01
03-26-2007, 03:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I check turn and fold to any bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you agree that on hand two this is not a good spot to raise and thus your suggestion is just to salvage the situation, or do you think that OP's play is fine?
tiger_hall
03-26-2007, 03:10 PM
in the second hand it is an easy lay down.... trips and flush draw possible.... i wud check it and if they check back then i think that i am ahead althou no point betting on river.. a check call is easier as u hav kept the pot smaller...
DexterJoe
03-26-2007, 03:10 PM
I would've folded them both on the flop... 1st hand it looks like you are beat, 2nd hand you're check raised on the flop - again I'd guess you're beat with less than TP or overpair.
Machavelli
03-26-2007, 03:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I check turn and fold to any bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you agree that on hand two this is not a good spot to raise and thus your suggestion is just to salvage the situation, or do you think that OP's play is fine?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising in this spot is marginal. Somewhat read dependent. Has villain been cbetting every time? When his cbets are raised does he let go or float? Will villain bet/call a raise on a draw? Whats your image? Are you been seen betting/raising on draws? Lots of questions to be answered. Given the right answers to those questions i think raising that flop isn't bad.
tiger_hall
03-26-2007, 03:18 PM
first hand i am re raising the continuation bet.. otherwise u dont know if u have him beat... if he calls he has you... otherwise u take it down..
RollTide77
03-26-2007, 03:23 PM
I don't like to call every raise PF with low-mid PPs. You don't hit often enough to cover the .50 cents you're losing when you don't hit. But I will call with 99 usually. But here, the villians are 12/4 so they aren't raising with anything but AK and high PPs. I would just fold and stay out of their way. Maybe call every once in awhile. If you do call you have to lead these low flops. Chances they have a T are slim.
creamfillin
03-26-2007, 03:58 PM
raising 12/4s on these type of flops, is a mistake. Their range is heavily skewed towards premium pairs, and you'll frequently be raising into an overpair.

Hand #1, I just call the flop
Hand #2, I would definitely bet the turn and represent the trips
juanepr
03-26-2007, 04:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to call every raise PF with low-mid PPs. You don't hit often enough to cover the .50 cents you're losing when you don't hit. But I will call with 99 usually. But here, the villians are 12/4 so they aren't raising with anything but AK and high PPs. I would just fold and stay out of their way. Maybe call every once in awhile. If you do call you have to lead these low flops. Chances they have a T are slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting I fold preflop? What about the 5/10 rule? These seem like automatic calls, purely based on set value alone. And given their stats, these players play so few hands, that they do not want to fold when they do. I have seen this villian specifically stack off with A high.
RollTide77
03-26-2007, 05:30 PM
Good point. But just understand that you have most likely have no hand value against him unless you hit a set. You are a 1.2:1 fav against two overcards and 4.5:1 dog against a better pair. In these instances you are almost certainly to need to flop a set and you are 8:1 to hit that set on the flop. So if you "only" lose .50 every time you don't hit (8 times) you will need to win $4 from him the one time you do to break even. This doesn't include the times that he out sets you or makes a flush or straight. I would just rather stay out of his way and fight someone less nitty.
juanepr
03-26-2007, 05:36 PM
I agree that most times its a set or fold on the flop. However, it is EV+ since these villians cannot fold QQ+.