Play this JTs OTB with me

[Tooty816]

The villain is unknown. The pf raise wasn't that much, plus I had position, so I decided to call. Flop was a little tricky. What would you do?

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $162.03
UTG+1: $0
CO: $15
Tooty: $54.95
SB: $48.28
BB: $37.66

Pre-flop: (6 players) Tooty is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Tooty raises to $2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $5.25</font>, BB folds, Tooty calls.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($11, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $7</font>, Tooty?

[clownslayer2]

I say call then see his action the turn. With no reads it is tough though. he could very easily be re-stealing. I def do not like a raise, just a call and see what his action is on turn cuz of your position. Fold to a good bet, bet 3/4 pot to a check.

[creamdog]

I think I fold to the SB's reraise. TJs is not a great hand, I only raise there in the first place in a steal attempt.
But as played
Fold the flop. He reraised PF, showing stregth, he has, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, maybe TT depending on his pf range, but i dont think he bets TT on this flop, he might be the others, he leads out with any of the 4 pairs/set, and AJ, likely that he will lead with AK and some players bet and some check with AQ, about split i think. so all but one hand he bets with are ahead of you. easy fold.

[Tooty816]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold to the SB's reraise. TJs is not a great hand, I only raise there in the first place in a steal attempt.
But as played
Fold the flop. He reraised PF, showing stregth, he has, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, maybe TT depending on his pf range, but i dont think he bets TT on this flop, he might be the others, he leads out with any of the 4 pairs/set, and AJ, likely that he will lead with AK and some players bet and some check with AQ, about split i think. so all but one hand he bets with are ahead of you. easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, TJs is not a great hand in terms of high card value, but it's the best drawing hand out there, which means it carries some good implied odds. Since we both have full stacks, isn't it worth just a bit over a minraise call to see a flop?

Regarding your range, there are 6 ways to make each AA KK QQ, 3 ways to make JJ, and 12 ways to make AJ, totalling 33. There are 16 ways to make AK, and 16 ways to make AQ, 6 ways to make TT, totalling 38. Furthermore, I doubt JJ would make such a big bet with a made set. Very often, I've seen sets bet just half the pot or less, or even check the flop! For now, assuming each hand has an equal chance of betting the standard 3/4 flop bet, I'm ahead of over 50% of those hands. This is excluding hands like KQ and 99. Still think it's an easy fold?

[Pirelli]

Call and see what he does on the turn. You have 9 outs against AA.

[Tooty816]

All right, so I called his bet on the flop.

The turn came a 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, basically a blank.

The pot is now $25. He bet again with $17. Easy fold now?

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
All right, so I called his bet on the flop.

The turn came a 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, basically a blank.

The pot is now $25. He bet again with $17. Easy fold now?

[/ QUOTE ] 10 outs when he has a made hand and we have showdown value for when he is double barreling with air. I think he just priced out our draw even though we usually stack him if we hit so this really depends on how often he is bluffing. Against an unknown I'll fold but its close and not an "easy fold".

[bozzer]

does he think you call rather than fold on the flop with a straight or flush draw? does he think you call rather than raise on the flop with a combo draw? if so he might be doublebarrelling. does he do this with a draw? otherwise you behind his range of AA-QQ,sets,AJ, perhaps half his king jacks and say half of his AK and AQ holdings.

against an unknown i'd be inclined to let this go, but i don't play $50. If it's a fairly aggressive game you might want to call down.

[Tooty816]

This guy played the hand pretty quick. I sensed some confidence in his betting. Plus he hasn't been out of line in the time I've been playing with him. I was probably up against AA KK QQ there. It might have been worth a call due to my implied odds though..

[ocdscale]

I don't think you have any implied odds here.
If you call the flop, and a J or T or 9 comes on the turn/river, the action dies right there.

[boycalledroy]

I would allow a 3bet the first few times and then go after it. Against an unknown this could be anything. Treat players as nits until otherwise!

[Tooty816]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you have any implied odds here.
If you call the flop, and a J or T or 9 comes on the turn/river, the action dies right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That idea is ridiculous to me. If I had hit a T or J or a 9, he would have check/folded holding AA KK QQ? Do you realize how big of a laydown that is?

Let's say a J hits on the flop. He bets $17, I minraise for value. What's he going to do, fold?!?! Do you give unknowns so much credit that you think they'll fold to overpairs facing aggression in 50NL?