Gambling and Religon

[hashi92]

Gambling is morally wrong according to most religons. how do religous people on this forum justify their hobby or job (playing poker).

[SammyKid11]

The same way religious people justify almost everything their religions teach them not to do...they evade, re-interpret, and ignore. The Bible also teaches that it's morally wrong to touch the skin of a dead pig (somewhere in Leviticus), yet I know of no bigger group of football fans than Southern Baptists. Re-interpret and ignore the crap you're interested in doing, take literally and condemn for the crap you don't feel like others should be doing (cause, if gay people wanna get married, the religious folk don't like that too much).

[NotReady]

Some previous threads on this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...amp;sb=5&o= (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3363023&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...amp;sb=5&o= (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2716105&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...amp;sb=5&o= (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3430321&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=)


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...&sb=5&o (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3569071&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Asian religions have no problem with gambling
Catholic churches run bingo halls
I've seen many Protestant churches advertise raffles

Please define "most"

[SammyKid11]

I won't comment on Asian religions or Catholicism, as I've never been personally involved with either. But I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and I can tell you they (perhaps hypocritically) do not view church raffles and poker, sports betting, blackjack, as at all the same. Their having church raffles do not affect their position on "the vice of gambling."

[txag007]

Obviously, you won't find the word "poker" in the Bible. The Bible really doesn't discuss gambling either, at least not in a literal sense. What it does do , though, is warn against certain aspects of the human character that gambling tends to bring out. For instance, it tells us that greed or covetousness is a sin. Paul writes to Timothy that "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil". If this is why you are playing poker then perhaps you are sinning. It doesn't mean, though, that the game itself is a sin.

The Bible also talks about the value of work and warns against "get rich quick" schemes. Biblically, we are to gain wealth over a long period of time. Again, that doesn't mean the game of poker is evil. More than anything, it is God telling us not to put ourselves in -EV situations.

And of course becoming addicted to poker or any type of gambling would be a sin for a multitude of reasons. That's true in other areas of life, as well.

[hmkpoker]

Would you say that it is true that God created the world in such a way that following his instructions is, in addition to being righteous, specifically +EV in this life as well?

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, you won't find the word "poker" in the Bible. The Bible really doesn't discuss gambling either, at least not in a literal sense. What it does do , though, is warn against certain aspects of the human character that gambling tends to bring out. For instance, it tells us that greed or covetousness is a sin. Paul writes to Timothy that "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil". If this is why you are playing poker then perhaps you are sinning. It doesn't mean, though, that the game itself is a sin.

The Bible also talks about the value of work and warns against "get rich quick" schemes. Biblically, we are to gain wealth over a long period of time. Again, that doesn't mean the game of poker is evil. More than anything, it is God telling us not to put ourselves in -EV situations.

And of course becoming addicted to poker or any type of gambling would be a sin for a multitude of reasons. That's true in other areas of life, as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone can refute this, I would like to know the verse’s location. I have heard people say that gambling is a sin... but I have never read anything myself that says that. I’m pretty sure (not 100%) that Jesus got mad when people were gambling in the “house of the lord” (church), but the gambling itself was not the problem. There is more of the Bible that I haven't read, than have... so I may be totally wrong here. I would just like evidence of me being wrong.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
If anyone can refute this, I would like to know the verse’s location.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there are some verses listed in those threads that NotReady posted.

txag is right, though... but, conservative Christians would take what he said, combined with "do not cause your brother to sin", and "avoid even the appearance of evil", as enough proof that God doesn't want them to gamble.

[Peter666]

Because we take the money from stupid atheists and sinners. It is God's work.

[hmkpoker]

Thank you, peter, for being one of the few people who can spell "atheist" correctly /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that it is true that God created the world in such a way that following his instructions is, in addition to being righteous, specifically +EV in this life as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that it is true that God created the world in such a way that following his instructions is, in addition to being righteous, specifically +EV in this life as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Is abstaining from sex till marriage supposed to be +EV in this life?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that it is true that God created the world in such a way that following his instructions is, in addition to being righteous, specifically +EV in this life as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Is abstaining from sex till marriage supposed to be +EV in this life?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that it is true that God created the world in such a way that following his instructions is, in addition to being righteous, specifically +EV in this life as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Is abstaining from sex till marriage supposed to be +EV in this life?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not feeling inclined to argue this, just wanted to ask /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

In other words, Southern Baptists think gambling is OK when *they* make the profit.

[pkrNinja]

If anyone can refute this, I would like to know the verse’s location. I have heard people say that gambling is a sin... but I have never read anything myself that says that. I’m pretty sure (not 100%) that Jesus got mad when people were gambling in the “house of the lord” (church), but the gambling itself was not the problem. There is more of the Bible that I haven't read, than have... so I may be totally wrong here. I would just like evidence of me being wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a believing poker player, I do not find any mention in the Bible against gambling. There is guidance of money management, but I see any +EV bet as a good use of money. And in the end, it is really no different than a business gamble or playing the stock market.

As far as Jesus in the Temple, there was actually no mention of gambling. Jesus was angry at the moneychangers who were ripping off foreign Jews travelling to Jeruselem. The moneychangers were changing foreign currency to local and at a very dishonest rate. There were also market workers in the Temple selling animals for sacrafice at outrageous prices.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
As a believing poker player, I do not find any mention in the Bible against gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but if you really cared what the Bible said about gambling, then you wouldn't gamble. Can you name any Christian denomination whose official stance on gambling is that it's OK?

If you really cared what the Bible said, then you would avoid the appearance of evil. You would not cause your brother to stumble by taking his money and/or feeding his gambling habit.

[edit] PS: This is my 777th post -- it must be an endorsement from God. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that it is true that God created the world in such a way that following his instructions is, in addition to being righteous, specifically +EV in this life as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Is abstaining from sex till marriage supposed to be +EV in this life?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[/ QUOTE ]
I hear eunuchs live 12 years longer on average.

chez

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear eunuchs live 12 years longer on average.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, that explains the castrati. It wasn't done for the pope ears but for their own good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[yukoncpa]

They don't go bald either.

[pkrNinja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a believing poker player, I do not find any mention in the Bible against gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but if you really cared what the Bible said about gambling, then you wouldn't gamble. Can you name any Christian denomination whose official stance on gambling is that it's OK?

If you really cared what the Bible said, then you would avoid the appearance of evil. You would not cause your brother to stumble by taking his money and/or feeding his gambling habit.

[edit] PS: This is my 777th post -- it must be an endorsement from God. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since the Bible says nothing against gambling, your statement that I would not gamble if I cared what the Bible says is pointless. No, I know of no Christian denomination which endorses gambling, but I do not see where man is the judge of moral right and wrong. I have shared my profession with many people, and today it has much less of an appearance of evil than it did 20 years ago, or even 10. None of your arguments along this line amount to anything.

In regards to your statement about "taking my brothers money", you must be ignorant in the field of economics. All money comes from somewhere, and when you gain money, it was at the expense of someone else. This works in business the same as it does in poker. If you own a small store, you are in competition with other like stores, and your profit is their loss. There is nothing inherently immoral about this. It is the way money, and all economics work.

Your statements come across as harsh, but I dont think you have put much if any thought into them

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a believing poker player, I do not find any mention in the Bible against gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but if you really cared what the Bible said about gambling, then you wouldn't gamble. Can you name any Christian denomination whose official stance on gambling is that it's OK?

If you really cared what the Bible said, then you would avoid the appearance of evil. You would not cause your brother to stumble by taking his money and/or feeding his gambling habit.

[edit] PS: This is my 777th post -- it must be an endorsement from God. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since the Bible says nothing against gambling,

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't say a lot about a lot of things, but people infer things by it's general precepts. If you care what the Bible says, you would re-read NotReady's post, and the posts of those threads he linked to, and the links in those. The fact is, the Bible says enough about gambling that every major Christian denomination says it is wrong. Add the two verses I mentioned, and you have your answer. It's wrong, according to the Bible.

Also, I didn't say "taking your brother's money"... I said "causing your brother to stumble by...". That's different. Do you see why? Hint: Gambling is a zero-sum game -- stores, and stocks are not. You can read those other threads and links in them for more information. If you care.

If I seem too harsh, then I need only remind you of how harsh Jesus seemed to those money changers. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I don't care if you gamble... and I'm not trying to stop you -- I just want people to be honest. WWJD, you know. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[pkrNinja]

As far as your references to Christian denomination's reaction to scripture, since when do denominations determine the truth of Scripture?? you cannot use mans interpretation of scripture to claim something that scripture says.

I have not read Notreadys posts, though I have heard much about them. perhaps I should read some of them, although I dont thing it would change my opinion. (perhaps, but I believe I know what I am talking about here).

By the way, are you a Christian or not? Sorry if this sounds awkward, but it makes a difference in the way I respond to your posts.

Thanks

Steven

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I have not read Notreadys posts, though I have heard much about them. perhaps I should read some of them


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was talking about previous threads which I linked in my post below. My position is that gambling is not necessarily sinful and that poker is not necessarily gambling.

[hashi92]

poker players prey on weaker opponents. they take advantage of other peoples weakness. how is this morally correct.

[hmkpoker]

How is poker not gambling?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

How is poker not gambling?


[/ QUOTE ]

Definitions vary. I define gambling as -EV so for a skilled player it isn't gambling. Don't know if Webster agrees with me on this one. It is risk taking, but so is much else that is +EV.

[Stu Pidasso]

My wife asked our traditional catholic preist if it was wrong for me to play poker. His response was basically to the effect that recreational gambling is ok. Gambling becomes morally wrong if it takes "food off the table".

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
...prey on weaker opponents...take advantage of other peoples weakness....

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the real world buddy.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
How is poker not gambling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because its a grind.

Stu

[hashi92]

try and ask this priest if recreational drug use is okay too. if i can do drugs and keep it under control this should be alright too.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
poker players prey on weaker opponents. they take advantage of other peoples weakness. how is this morally correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is any sport morally correct?

P.S. Question marks are your friend.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
try and ask this priest if recreational drug use is okay too. if i can do drugs and keep it under control this should be alright too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most religons are ok with controlled drug use provided the drug is legal.

chez

[hashi92]

[/ QUOTE ]
Most religons are ok with controlled drug use provided the drug is legal.

most drugs are legal in amsterdam. do you think a priest in america will say its alright to do recreational drugs if i visit amsterdam?

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker players prey on weaker opponents. they take advantage of other peoples weakness. how is this morally correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is any sport morally correct?

P.S. Question marks are your friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

athletes get paid to play their sport. when a professional player loses at a sport he still gets paid. also alot of non-competive sports have things like mercy rules to make losing less humilating for weaker teams. poker players dont get paid unless they win. athletes dont develop addictions toward their sports.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
My wife asked our traditional catholic preist if it was wrong for me to play poker. His response was basically to the effect that recreational gambling is ok. Gambling becomes morally wrong if it takes "food off the table".

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

What if your winnings take food off someone else's table?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
Most religons are ok with controlled drug use provided the drug is legal.

most drugs are legal in amsterdam. do you think a priest in america will say its alright to do recreational drugs if i visit amsterdam?

[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly most drugs aren't legal in Amsterdam but thats besides the point. Alcohol and nicotene are both legal drugs and mosts religons are fine with them. If other drugs are fully legalised then there's no reason to suppose that moderate use wouldn't also be ok, although attitudes take a while to change.

chez

[hmkpoker]

I know what you mean; so many forms of gambling are -EV that that almost seems to be a defining element.

I challenge you to find a legitimate definition of "gambling" which would exclude poker, but include -EV table games /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
athletes get paid to play their sport.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Then it sounds like somebody owes me some back pay for all that football I played in high school.u

My point was that I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of an opponent's weaknesses/mistakes as that's how life works sometimes. What should be learned is how to not make the same mistake again and it's the responsiblilty of the person who makes the mistake to fix it.

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
Most religons are ok with controlled drug use provided the drug is legal.

most drugs are legal in amsterdam. do you think a priest in america will say its alright to do recreational drugs if i visit amsterdam?

[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly most drugs aren't legal in Amsterdam but thats besides the point. Alcohol and nicotene are both legal drugs and mosts religons are fine with them. If other drugs are fully legalised then there's no reason to suppose that moderate use wouldn't also be ok, although attitudes take a while to change.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

oops sorry for my ignorance i thought most drugs were legal in amsterdam. i guess my point is that by doing drugs such as alcohol and nicotine your in essence polluting your body. your shortening your life span which is sort of like sinning .

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
Most religons are ok with controlled drug use provided the drug is legal.

most drugs are legal in amsterdam. do you think a priest in america will say its alright to do recreational drugs if i visit amsterdam?

[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly most drugs aren't legal in Amsterdam but thats besides the point. Alcohol and nicotene are both legal drugs and mosts religons are fine with them. If other drugs are fully legalised then there's no reason to suppose that moderate use wouldn't also be ok, although attitudes take a while to change.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

oops sorry for my ignorance i thought most drugs were legal in amsterdam. i guess my point is that by doing drugs such as alcohol and nicotine your in essence polluting your body. your shortening your life span which is sort of like sinning .

[/ QUOTE ]
Amsterdam is wierd but even cannabis isn't really legal. Most religons seem to tolerate wine and some even insist upon it. Moderate alcohol consumption isn't unhealthy as far as I'm aware but religons aren't health facists yet are they - 'thou shall not have high cholestrol'

chez

[hashi92]

some religons do forbid eating certain foods. mainly pork. this was probally due to trichinosis. which is sort of health related.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
some religons do forbid eating certain foods. mainly pork. this was probally due to trichinosis. which is sort of health related.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm yes... you are sort of saying that overeating that causes obesity with its attendant high morbidity is a sin, and that the USA has a comparatively higher ratio of sinners to the whole of population than most other countries???

I presume it is only one step away from saying that MCDonalds is an evil or satanic organisation.

I think I am getting it. Gosh, religions are complex! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hashi92]

mickydees is evil havent you watched super size me

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
mickydees is evil havent you watched super size me

[/ QUOTE ]

I have. Amazing it still is legal to eat fast food in the US! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]

Most religons are ok with controlled drug use provided the drug is legal.


[/ QUOTE ]

If smoking pot were legal I don't think the preist would have a problem with it as long as it was not done to excess. With alchohol its ok to drink but not to excess.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
What if your winnings take food off someone else's table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wondered about this after sitting at a poker table with some people who were unskilled and had obvious gambling problems. I'm sure anyone who has spent a significant time in a BM room can relate. I don't know if the preist knows that in poker the players opponent is not the house. He might change his position if he ever visited a BM card room and saw the self-destruction the game can bring(if he did I would think he was wrong).

Catholics believe that it is sinful to provide an occasion of sin for another. Does that mean it is sinful to own a liquour store? No you have an obligation to earn a living and use of liquor is and of itself is not sinful. So what does it mean that we not provide an occassion of sin for another. It means it would be sinful for me to call my freind who I know has a drinking problem and invite him out to a bar. It means that if I own a casino and I know one customer has a gaming problem, I need to cut him off. Its a fine line, but if you are Catholic you understand that it is a fine line....You also understand why fine lines are necessary.

So to answer your question. I don't believe it would be sinful to sit at a table with a player who I know has a gambling problem. It would be sinful for me to invite that person to play. However if my presence has no bearing on that individuals decision to be there, then I have obviously not committed a sin.

Stu

[JMa]

[ QUOTE ]
Asian religions have no problem with gambling
Catholic churches run bingo halls
I've seen many Protestant churches advertise raffles

Please define "most"

[/ QUOTE ]

Asian religions? Which religions are you referring to?

[hmkpoker]

What catholic or christian doctrine discusses the moral nature of drugs? They told us in Catholic school that drugs were a sin, but didn't really tell us why.

They pretty much did that with everything /images/graemlins/smile.gif