25 USD - This is a PP and I need to fold... yes?

[K䲰䮥n]

Villain is 44/24/4 (large sample size)

http://www.pokerhand.org/?935571

[Genz]

Villain is very aggro and he could have A hi. But I don't want to gamble here.

[takingcontrol]

Looks like a PP or ace high. I'd fold.

[Sneds9]

Fold.

[matrix]

i) please convert and post hands directly - Pokerhand makes it hard to comment as easily.

ii) whats with the $4.91 flop raise?

as played - fold - you're getting 2:1 odds and are 4:1 to hit your hand.

[Kozmor]

check flop...

[K䲰䮥n]

[ QUOTE ]
i) please convert and post hands directly - Pokerhand makes it hard to comment as easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

After the latest PP update the HHs won't convert. I was too lazy to do it manually /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]

ii) whats with the $4.91 flop raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

I use the BetPot script and sometimes it gives funny numbers at $25. Anyways isn't it pretty close to accuarate?

[ama0330]

Theres no real need to 3bet this preflop and I certainly wouldnt be leading the flop here either. You are often heading for a chop here anyway, i dont think there is a great deal of value in a bet here.

As played given that you have 3bet this preflop, pocket pairs are a huge part of his range and he has no need to fold them. Your best chance is to try and catch a free turn or river and hit one of your cards, and if you cant get them cheap id just fold.

[K䲰䮥n]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no real need to 3bet this preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no real need to 3bet this preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me first why you want to 3bet this.

[K䲰䮥n]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no real need to 3bet this preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me first why you want to 3bet this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm new to ring games so... well... I 3bet this because I though it's standard in these spots against a LAG. But mostly I did it for value. Should I control the pot more?

I'd really appreciate if you (or someone else) told me why I should not 3bet in this spot (the princible behind it).

[chanchuan]

[ QUOTE ]
as played - fold - you're getting 2:1 odds and are 4:1 to hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't OP more like 3:1 to hit his hand (6 outs)? Are we discounting one out for the possibility that the villain hits his third for the higher boat (like villain has TT and the board comes 222QT)?

[ama0330]

Ok so your answer basically is "because I thought I should" which is what I thought you would say, which is why I asked /images/graemlins/wink.gif Basically, 3betting for effectively no reason is really bad and you should think about your plan for the hand with regard to his holding.

I dont like a 3bet here, basically because versus his range, I dont think its the best way to get value out of the hand at all. Say villain has a hand like 77. If you 3bet, well he's going to call. But if you hit or ace or queen, hes not going to put any more money in the pot and you win nothing more than his preflop call. But say you just call preflop, catch an ace, and he bets into you on the flop, and you just call. Then he checks the turn, and you check behind. Well now, he has no idea what you have, even though you can be really sure that you are probably good. So you can go ahead and lead the river small for value, and you can be pretty sure he'll pay you off. So you get a bunch more value out of the hand than you would if you 3bet him preflop and he folded.

The other consideration is that if you DONT flop your ace in a 3bet pot, and he leads into you, you have a problem. The pot is big, you have no idea where you stand, and if he does lead, youre likely behind with little FE. And of course the other problem is that if he leads into you on say a A45r flop, and you raise and he pushes, youre going to be behind AK a fair amount of the time too.

The basic gist is that I generally play AQo as a "small pot" hand unless I have some reason to do otherwise. The only reason that I would 3bet AQo preflop would be to maintain a crazy image, or if my image was already bad enough that I would feel like Id get paid off by a lower ace. Generally at uNL you should make all your plays thinking about the way to extract the most VALUE from a hand. I feel that (in general, of course) given how 50nl plays, 3betting AQo preflop is more a bluff than a value play, even in position.

[K䲰䮥n]

nice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[chanchuan]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like a 3bet here, basically because versus his range, I dont think its the best way to get value out of the hand at all. Say villain has a hand like 77. If you 3bet, well he's going to call. But if you hit or ace or queen, hes not going to put any more money in the pot and you win nothing more than his preflop call. But say you just call preflop, catch an ace, and he bets into you on the flop, and you just call. Then he checks the turn, and you check behind. Well now, he has no idea what you have, even though you can be really sure that you are probably good. So you can go ahead and lead the river small for value, and you can be pretty sure he'll pay you off. So you get a bunch more value out of the hand than you would if you 3bet him preflop and he folded.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice reasoning, I'll have to think about it and small pots for AQ. However, as for villain calling with 77, well, if he's raising with 24% of his hands then he might also be calling 3-bets with a lot, and pocket pairs constitute a very small percentage of his range. If he's donkish, as his stats suggest he might as well call with KQo or am I mistaken here?

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's donkish, as his stats suggest he might as well call with KQo or am I mistaken here?

[/ QUOTE ]

he gets dealt KQ just as often as he gets dealt AK.

Sure he'll call with KQ and you'll make a big pot out of him when you both hit the Q - about the same amount of time as he calls with AK and you lose a big pot when you both flop an Ace. He'll also call with all his pp's (as a 60/40 favourite) and pp's are ~1/3 of his calling 3bet range at least.

I agree with ama. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i) please convert and post hands directly - Pokerhand makes it hard to comment as easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

After the latest PP update the HHs won't convert. I was too lazy to do it manually /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought I was the only one that couldn't convert. What the hell's going on with that? It's so annoying. Anyone know if they are going to fix this?

[AusDerBunker]

It is hard to agree with the advice in this thread as being the truth, sure it is one way to play, but only a matter of personal preference and nothing else.

Lets us look villian, he is 44/24 which is huge. This is the sort of villian that you actually want to put pressure on and isolate, but mostly put pressure on.

He is a lagtard, but unless there is a read, that he will bluff off his entire stack every hand, slowplaying AQ preflop is nonsense imho.

The thing is, that you want to tighten up against a character like this guy, but once you are about to get involved, you do not wish to be in this sort of check/call mode, you'll just get run over.

I mean sure, He could have KQ and stack off on a Q high flop, but that is kinda daydreaming about the perfect scenario.

Ama says, what if you threebet and miss flop and then he leads into you. Well first of all, people rarely lead into threebetters, and if they do it is usually a sign of weakness. So basically in that spot you'll just have to read and play poker, no big deal.

But 44/24 is HUGE ... pocket pairs consist of only 5% of starting hands, so with a hand like AQ you have a big preflop equity edge, so you want to 3bet here.

1 You are applying pressure.
2 You'll most likely take it down here
3 Chances are you both miss and your cbet takes it down
4 And finally you don't want to get run over, sure with a read of a very bad lag, you can try to trap, but c'mon even a bad lag is not going to fire several bullets on a A high flop.

So my point is, that against someone like this, you want to tighten up, but once you enter, you do not necesarrily want to be meek.

[KungFuManchu]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so your answer basically is "because I thought I should" which is what I thought you would say, which is why I asked /images/graemlins/wink.gif Basically, 3betting for effectively no reason is really bad and you should think about your plan for the hand with regard to his holding.

I dont like a 3bet here, basically because versus his range, I dont think its the best way to get value out of the hand at all. Say villain has a hand like 77. If you 3bet, well he's going to call. But if you hit or ace or queen, hes not going to put any more money in the pot and you win nothing more than his preflop call. But say you just call preflop, catch an ace, and he bets into you on the flop, and you just call. Then he checks the turn, and you check behind. Well now, he has no idea what you have, even though you can be really sure that you are probably good. So you can go ahead and lead the river small for value, and you can be pretty sure he'll pay you off. So you get a bunch more value out of the hand than you would if you 3bet him preflop and he folded.

The other consideration is that if you DONT flop your ace in a 3bet pot, and he leads into you, you have a problem. The pot is big, you have no idea where you stand, and if he does lead, youre likely behind with little FE. And of course the other problem is that if he leads into you on say a A45r flop, and you raise and he pushes, youre going to be behind AK a fair amount of the time too.

The basic gist is that I generally play AQo as a "small pot" hand unless I have some reason to do otherwise. The only reason that I would 3bet AQo preflop would be to maintain a crazy image, or if my image was already bad enough that I would feel like Id get paid off by a lower ace. Generally at uNL you should make all your plays thinking about the way to extract the most VALUE from a hand. I feel that (in general, of course) given how 50nl plays, 3betting AQo preflop is more a bluff than a value play, even in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. 3bet 75s will do a hell of a thing for u if ur in a game where people consitently fold on Ahigh and Qhigh flops when after u 3bet. 3bet wider, not lesser.

2. 3betting AQo pf to get a crazy image is LOL. (see #1 about 75s).

3. the guy is 44/24

4. FE depends, often they lead into u overcard flop, u raise, they probably call 60 percent of the time (if they are loose), fire turn, almost always they fold in my experience unless they just cant fold anything at all. if he leads into you on a JT8 two suited flop, thats not a fun situation if u have AA or AQ and u probably dont have much fold equity on that flop if u did want to raise.


5. there is always a way to get money against a 44/24 on an Ahigh or Qhigh flop. Im not a big fan of checking behind after being the pf agressor. ex u could be pretty small, check behind turn, bet river.

6. 3betting and taking it down pf or on flop adds up. another reason to also start pounding on players that call and fold flop or keep folding pf

7. Aus hit on stuff I was going to mention.

8. Ive been playing against a lot of two plus twoers cause Im doing a chris fergason style project of starting with little money and going big for fun in my spare time, and man, a lot of u guys or well, maybe at least half to 60 (maybe more) percent can just be ran over. obviously this is different as u move to higher limits.

[DF_Newbie]

I really dont mind 3 betting AQ in position against a lag donkey.

[K䲰䮥n]

[ QUOTE ]
I really dont mind 3 betting AQ in position against a lag donkey.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're back /images/graemlins/heart.gif