bad overpair against 2p2er 50NL DEEP

[the machine]

so some may berate my limp here but i had been getting 3bet fairly light, so i decide to limp behind here. villain is 2p2 and is running 30/20/6. calling sucks as does raising. should we just fold the flop???

Full Tilt Poker
$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
4 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
SB: $65.3
BB: $92
CO: $77.70
Hero (BTN): $159.30

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.75, 4 players)
CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, <font color="red">BB raises to $3</font>, CO calls $2.50, Hero calls $2.50, SB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($9.5, 3 players)
<font color="red">BB bets $6.50</font>, CO folds, Hero???

[Paul Thomson]

calling preflop is bad even given history since you're playing only 4 people. vililain range is way too too wide even if you'renot playing for set vlaue.

on the flop, calling and raising are both good. I like raising since the board is dry.

[mathemagician54]

the reason you are in such a situation is because of your preflop play... the solution to being 3bet light isn't to limp/call, it's to 4bet with a wider range

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason you are in such a situation is because of your preflop play... the solution to being 3bet light isn't to limp/call, it's to 4bet with a wider range

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right. but limping and reraising is also good but very difficult strategy.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason you are in such a situation is because of your preflop play... the solution to being 3bet light isn't to limp/call, it's to 4bet with a wider range

[/ QUOTE ]

there is more than one way to fillet a fish.

there's nothing wrong with limp/calling preflop more often if you have a hand that likes implied odds such as a sc/pp.

A good poker strategy ought to include both 4betting light and limp/calling preflop imo.

I think provided you know that McAggro in the blinds is raising your overlimp that preflop is fine.

This flop is begging for a raise. He really can't have hit that flop with very much of his range. Turn up the heat and make him pay for playing OOP vs your button.

I make it $20 to go and rep my pair of fives as hard as I possibly can.

If he calls and leads turn into us fold - if he calls and checks to us and the turn isn't broadway I hit him with another barrel.

[Genz]

I don't mind preflop. On an active tables, I like to be a little stealthy and I know that I will pick up big bets after the flop.

Limp/call preflop is a good indication for a PP. So when you raise him here, he will have a hard time playing his broadway trash oop. If you meet resistance, you should fold, though. He probably doesn't get the money in on this dry flop without an overpair then.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
calling preflop is bad even given history since you're playing only 4 people. vililain range is way too too wide even if you'renot playing for set vlaue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paul:

thanks for taking the time to post in uNL BTW /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm interested as to why you say calling pre is bad.

What circumstances would there need to be in your opinion before calling pre would be a good play?

[ama0330]

Absolultely fine preflop IMO, I definietly fold the flop.

Really importantly - why the hell would a 2p2'er be leading a non-pp hand into 3 players OOP here? If he has a non-pp hand I think this is a terrible play on this board, because if he has AK, there is no reason for a hand just like 66 to fold on such a low board, which is what he wants.

So given that vill is 2p2 and we assume that he plays well, we can assume pretty safely that he has a PP here. Of course if he does have a PP, then his hand beats us, and if we raise here he is more than capable of putting us on a move with AK or some lower PP. He's highly unlikely to fold, and will probably commit his stack with a holding like 99, as he would have expected us to raise preflop with anything better.

So I would just fold here, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to take this hand any further.

[ QUOTE ]
the reason you are in such a situation is because of your preflop play... the solution to being 3bet light isn't to limp/call, it's to 4bet with a wider range

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is generally bad advice for 50nl. 4betting with anything but the nuts down here is nothing short of suicide. Of course I know that you mean versus thinking players and 2p2ers, but in this hand, hero has 2 other players to worry about. I think that in this hand a limp call is more than okay given how big the preflop pot is, and also given that villain is likely to play his holding aggressively on the flop to try and take it down if it does get HU.

[the machine]

thanks trixy. i did that exactly. i went to 20 and he almost insta shoved. i actually considered calling him. he said after teh hand he had AK.

still dont think a call it the right play here if he comes over the top of my raise. discuss?

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]


So given that vill is 2p2 and we assume that he plays well, we can assume pretty safely that he has a PP here.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh???

he raised pre - and then CBet 2/3 into 2 other players.

I don't think we can say he has a pp here at all. If anything I'd lean towards putting him on whiffed overcards rather than a pair.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course if he does have a PP, then his hand beats us, and if we raise here he is more than capable of putting us on a move with AK or some lower PP. ... villain is likely to play his holding aggressively on the flop to try and take it down if it does get HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

True - but what thinking player is going to put *us* on much short of a set/good overpair if we raise this flop and is going to want to continue without a good hand OOP vs a TAG aggro thinking Hero?

We have position here - I say we ought to wield position and make villain put his chips in if he wants to play here.

Alternatively this might be a good spot for a call and then a float play on a scary turn. Tho as villain is very overaggro (30/20/SIX) I'd have to guess he'd fire most turns as well - or worse CR our turn float if we made one, so I think raising the flop is the better play.

I can see the arguments for folding - I don't think folding the flop is a big mistake (if it is a mistake at all) but vs a thinking player who is capable of putting us on a good hand just as easily as putting us on a move here I think we ought to make some kind of play at this pot.

Calling pre just for set value is meh. - We do have some SD value here - and as the board is paired there's a lot less of his range he can hit.

[jjb108]

Very interesting hand. Best lately IMO.

Machine – As played and given your read, I like a float here. You have position. Use it. You’re deep and villain really won’t want to get in to far without a hand OOP. You may be best here.

If he fires the turn, meh, I probably fold.

Preflop, I favor a call because we have position and I hate getting run into the nuts trying to play mr. Aggro and ignoring the other 2 players. HU a 3-bet in position seems good but I’d really like a little more than 66. Its unlikely to improve and may as well be air when 3 overs come down on the flop.

Ama0330
[ QUOTE ]
player is 2+2 and we assume that he plays well ???

[/ QUOTE ]
You obviously haven’t seen me play much. If villain is 2+2, we know he will play combo draws aggressively and make moves. But we all make some very fundamental mistakes.

Agree that 4-betting light OOP is horrible and not a standard option at the micros. In position and against a thinking villain, it is a viable option.

As for me, I will usually have TT+ and AK here if I am villain. If I’m feeling frisky, 99 might look good. The reason AK is in here is because its in my raising range. I won't always fire out with it but I have...bad play that it might be. I'm more likely to have a big overpair.

Paul – I'm told that noone 3-bets light at the micros. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=9600320&amp; fpart=1&amp;PHPSESSID=) If that is the case, would you therefore increase your 3-bet frequency. This type of hand and 3-betting light solutions are currently the most interesting topic to me. See the link for my current half-baked ideas.

Here's another half-formed random thought. 4-betting light is not my cup of tea but I would open my 4-betting range a bit. 66 isn’t in it though. Too much of a chance of seeing a dominating overpair. This seems to be my experience when I try it.

[EMc]

4 betting here makes no sense deep. Your hand has excellent value and implied odds given the stacks.

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
4 betting here makes no sense deep. Your hand has excellent value and implied odds given the stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

good implied odds assumes that the villain is raising us with a NORMAL 3-bet range not a wide 3-bet range.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 betting here makes no sense deep. Your hand has excellent value and implied odds given the stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

good implied odds assumes that the villain is raising us with a NORMAL 3-bet range not a wide 3-bet range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, but you are giving up/losing too much value if you 4 bet here. There are many better hands to 4 bet with, I dont think 66 is one of them.

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 betting here makes no sense deep. Your hand has excellent value and implied odds given the stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

good implied odds assumes that the villain is raising us with a NORMAL 3-bet range not a wide 3-bet range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, but you are giving up/losing too much value if you 4 bet here. There are many better hands to 4 bet with, I dont think 66 is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

in CTSs post about 4-betting light...he starts doing it wiht a wide range that inlcudes most A X hands because the A gives him more equity if it all goes in. However, you can have the exact same equity if you push with your small pocket pairs if villain will call with AK. So it all depends on the ranges of the villain.

[lazeeesunday]

Pre-flop is ok - although being the first raiser is also fine - it's not like he's 3-betting u EVERY time...

As for the flop in this situation, raise and call are both fantastic options - raising will usually take the flop here, or on a non-broadway turn a second barrel and it should be yours... Also a call followed by a turn bet/raise should also take the pot down. If he plays back at you at anytime its an easy fold...

Pretty simple hand imo...

[Paul Thomson]

Another reason to raise preflop is that limping defines your hand. People who limp call a preflop raise usually have small suited connectors or small pocket pairs.

So when the flop has this texture. You can't raise the flop bet against a smart aggressive opponent because they can easily 3-bet you off your hands as they know exactly where you're at and they are repping a big pocket pair.

so given preflop i like a call on the flop.

[lazeeesunday]

Mmmm, I like that reasoning for a call Paul /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KungFuManchu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the reason you are in such a situation is because of your preflop play... the solution to being 3bet light isn't to limp/call, it's to 4bet with a wider range

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right. but limping and reraising is also good but very difficult strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

word. all options are open. limping is fine in my opinion, if I was limping here, Id seriously think about reraising this raise pf.

flop raise is okay, but if somebody raises me on this flop, depending on who they are, Im going to 3bet them. commitment and consistency, can they stand the pressure, almost always no they cant. will I always 3bet, no, Ill balance it depending where my table image is at. at these limits, u probably wont get to many like that though.

this flop is dryish in the sense that there is not much there, but if ur a tag raising me, odds are u are trying to find where u stand. kind of like someone donking me on an overcard flop or any flop. I raise, 60 percent they call (well its lower if they are tighter players, at this limit, Id say 60 percent so u need to double barrell it often). Fire turn, they fold pretty damn often unless they are a pretty big calling station (or have seen your table image go to complete crap and see u showdown some decent bluffs recently..so be aware always what others think, even if u think they are not paying [censored] all of a clue to you or whats happening). imo, its the same way here.

personally in your situation, with position, I call, evalute on turn what to do. depending on who he is, what u know, what hes betting, what the card is.