Tough spot w/ 88

[LOwrestling2001]

No reads on villain except he was sitting there w/ an 80bb stack for a while (not a refiller). I call the minraise and the turn brings an OESD, what to do here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($49.25)
SB ($52.50)
BB ($37.90)
UTG ($38.90)
MP ($74.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.75) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $9</font>, Hero calls $4.50.

Turn: ($23.75) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $12.5</font>, Hero calls $12.50.

River: ($48.75) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $14.9 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $14.90.

Final Pot: $78.55

[Aschweinsteiger]

this type of situation happens to me all the time at 50nl, im really interested in knowing what UTG had here

[LOwrestling2001]

i'll update later with results.

[rakes.a.beach]

These types of hands are very villian dependent, specifically, what villian has when he min raises.

I think your line is okay.

[marvin_1935]

as you were deciding to call the turn what was you plan for the river? due to stack sizes i can't imagine he will ever check the river.

[LOwrestling2001]

yea basically at the turn if i called there i was callin the river, who here is shoving the turn? i guess it makes no difference because villain obviously not folding his hand w/ the odds to call a turn push.

[the machine]

you arent getting the right price to call for an OESD if you think 88 is no good. so basically you are making the wrong decision by caling with improper odds. however if you tihnk u have the best hand as well as the draw then you have to call the river. the decision is made on the turn, and im only making teh call if i think my 88 is the best hand.

[marvin_1935]

machine is dead on here, if you think 88 is good on the turn, shove. if not, fold. you're not getting compelling odds and 2 of your outs are dirty

[LOwrestling2001]

well, that's partly why i posted the hand, because no true reads on villain, i could only really see a set, or an x7 type hand playing here like this here, also possibly 67. I guess it's pretty much villain dependent.

[Zagga]

I would call the minraise to see what he does on the turn then fold to any action or bet if he checks. (a lot of people like to check-minrasie bluf the c-bet. If they don't dare to raise more on the flop then a minbet they usually don't have the balls to continue on the turn, if he does bet out you can asume he has a good hand).

[VPIP100]

[ QUOTE ]
machine is dead on here, if you think 88 is good on the turn, shove. if not, fold. you're not getting compelling odds and 2 of your outs are dirty

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoving is bad.

[Genz]

I bet you ran into KK or QQ here. Against an unknown I usually fold this turn. I don't like to play for stacks on a board like this. And villain is showing quite a high level of aggression. So I don't assume he is betting his AT like this.

[marvin_1935]

if OP thinks 88 is ahead of villain's range, shoving is good. if not, fold.

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
if OP thinks 88 is ahead of villain's range, shoving is good. if not, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does shoving accomplish when OPs hand is actually best? He basically only beats a 2nd barrel with overcards and a flushdraw. There is no indication at all that villain will stack off with unimproved overs. Do we have fold equity after villain calls a preflop raise, check/raises the flop and bets so much on the turn that he is absolutely pot commited having only $15 left in a pot that is already $35 big? I don't think so.
I think IF OP's hand is best, he has a good chance that villain will check the river, because OP only beats a bluff anyway.

[marvin_1935]

2 cases:

1) we think we are ahead of villain's range. ie, FDs, 7x/6x/45.

vs this range shoving the turn is good because villain is pot committed and will call. if we just call the turn and villain misses his draw it is much harder to get his remaining ~15. ---&gt; if we call the turn we've really committed to a river call, so when villain hits the river we need to call his shove getting 4-1 and pay him off. if he misses the river he can check and we check behind missing out on the $15 we could have made by shoving the turn. if villain is bad enough to bluff the river on a missed draw or 6x/7x is bad enough to call the turn shove

2) we are behind villain's range, so we fold (duh)

i like the turn shove for value. not for protection and not as a move to fold out better hands (which never happens)

i'd love to hear why we shouldn't exploit our equity edge by shoving here (and instead call)