I just had a good laugh.

[Drainbamaged]

Hahaha! I examined my PokerTracker stats more closely for the first time, and, lo and behold, the button is my second most losing position, second to big blind! I think I safely conclude I misplay the button. :-) Further, my most losing hand at showdown is one pair. I think I as well safely conclude I overplay TPTK.

Anyone have any good tips on button play?

[Drainbamaged]

Oh. This is over 10- K hands. (My database covers 20+ K. Does the position page only list certain hands?)

*EDIT

Ah, OK. The 20+ K are all the hands, not just mine.

[Loc0Loc0]

My only overall losing position is the SB.

For the BB:
I think you call to many raises (min raises in particular)

For the BTN:
Can you see wich hands you are losing much? Analyse that group of hands and see if you should consider not to play a particular group of hands from that position.
When you raise much from the button take a look on your cbet %.
I only play 25% of the hands from the button in general en depending on the table i like to loosen up or tighten up a little. (Any pair, any broadway cards, any SC)

[Pirelli]

Maybe your button range is just a little wide.Try taking out the really marginal steal hands you may be playing, in particular offsuit high cards (KTo comes to mind) and ace small offsuit etc.

With your one pair hands try keeping the pots a little smaller, try checking the turn sometimes. Or maybe you just aren't folding it enough.

Before you decide to steal from the button consider what the sb/bb play like and try to adjust. If they are ultra loose and call a lot of flops, c-bet less when you have nothing. Maybe stop firing 2nd barrels if that is something you do currently.

It's hard to say without watching you play, but those are just a few ideas off the top of my head.

[kayfish77]

just raise every hand on the button. cbet. if they call, double barrel. if they call, overbet shove the river every time until they stop calling you down. at lower stakes its all about metagaming.

in all honesty though it sounds like your hand reading is really really marginal. it seems you're either overplaying position or misusing it and calling / making a ton of bets you shouldn't be.

[Drainbamaged]

Hmm. I don't really play KTo ever, almost, and very rarely Axo. kayfish, you're joking on the metagaming, right? At NL$10, you do get called down. I'll have to do a more thorough analysis of my statistics. Here's a probably unreadable list of my most losing hands:

starting_hand off_the_button times_dealt win_pct amt_won avg_per_hand co_bb_hand times_cc flop_pct win_pct_wsf co_pfr co_rfi lwpc wtsd wsd
96s BTN 2 0 -4.4700 -2.2350 -11.1750 0 100.0000 0 0 0 100.0000 100.0000 0
65s BTN 12 0 -13.6500 -1.1375 -6.2813 4.0000 100.0000 0 0 0 33.3333 100.0000 0
KTs BTN 10 20.0000 -10.6700 -1.0670 -9.4375 2.0000 100.0000 11.1111 50.0000 20.0000 30.0000 111.1111 20.0000
75s BTN 8 50.0000 -7.2200 -0.9025 -5.1313 2.0000 100.0000 50.0000 0 0 50.0000 100.0000 50.0000
QJs BTN 8 37.5000 -5.8300 -0.7288 -3.4375 2.0000 100.0000 28.5714 62.5000 25.0000 0 114.2857 37.5000
AKs BTN 11 36.3636 -7.4700 -0.6791 -3.3955 0 100.0000 12.5000 100.0000 45.4545 0 137.5000 36.3636
T7s BTN 2 0 -1.3400 -0.6700 -3.3500 0 100.0000 0 0 0 0 100.0000 0
A9s BTN 15 20.0000 -9.3800 -0.6253 -4.1667 2.0000 100.0000 21.4286 6.6667 6.6667 40.0000 107.1429 20.0000
AJs BTN 14 28.5714 -8.4400 -0.6029 -3.4482 1.0000 100.0000 30.7692 92.8571 42.8571 0 107.6923 28.5714
K8s BTN 3 0 -1.6400 -0.5467 -2.8333 0 100.0000 0 0 0 66.6667 150.0000 0
J9s BTN 10 10.0000 -5.3100 -0.5310 -2.6850 0 100.0000 11.1111 0 0 70.0000 111.1111 10.0000
A6o BTN 4 25.0000 -2.1000 -0.5250 -2.6250 0 100.0000 25.0000 25.0000 25.0000 50.0000 100.0000 25.0000
KJs BTN 14 28.5714 -6.7200 -0.4800 -2.8768 2.0000 100.0000 10.0000 50.0000 14.2857 7.1429 140.0000 28.5714
54s BTN 19 15.7895 -8.4500 -0.4447 -2.3026 4.0000 100.0000 18.7500 0 0 42.1053 118.7500 15.7895
JTs BTN 11 27.2727 -4.5500 -0.4136 -2.3682 5.0000 100.0000 22.2222 36.3636 27.2727 9.0909 122.2222 27.2727
55 BTN 24 29.1667 -9.7700 -0.4071 -2.0104 7.0000 100.0000 19.0476 70.8333 29.1667 0 114.2857 29.1667
98s BTN 7 14.2857 -2.8300 -0.4043 -2.4393 1.0000 100.0000 14.2857 0 0 42.8571 100.0000 14.2857
A8o BTN 7 42.8571 -2.8100 -0.4014 -1.6429 0 100.0000 42.8571 28.5714 28.5714 57.1429 100.0000 42.8571

If my average from the BB is -0.26BB, I'm doing better than I would just folding all the time, right?

I'll get back to you all. I'm off for work now.

[Loc0Loc0]

Yep /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But i don't going to look for leaks in your "Stats"...

[Drainbamaged]

Loc0Loc0, how on earth do you play not to lose from BB, but from SB? What hands do you play from respective position? How do you play them? Over how many hands are your statistics gathered?

[Loc0Loc0]

I just started up a new database... so my stats don't really reli to yours. I'm talking about 3,5K hands here.

6max i really play alot on position. I putting here only my opening hands. I really dont like limping with a bunch of limpers on micro's.

UTG: AJ+/KQs/
MP: UTG range w/ AT/A9s/KQo
CO: UTG range w/ A7s+/A8o+/KT+/QT+/JT+/SC (On table image maybe some more aces)
BTN: Ax+/KT+/QT+/JT/SC/(Sometimes S(G)C when the blinds are tight)

I raise any pair from any position.

(How i don't loose dunnow, sometimes I hit BB specials who pay me off. I raise if the SB completes --> cbet)

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Loc0Loc0, how on earth do you play not to lose from BB, but from SB? What hands do you play from respective position? How do you play them? Over how many hands are your statistics gathered?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just from a small sample size.. I was winner from the bb till i hit like 16k hands.. snag a few monsters and you're set for awhile.

[Drainbamaged]

[ QUOTE ]
I just started up a new database... so my stats don't really reli to yours. I'm talking about 3,5K hands here.

6max i really play alot on position. I putting here only my opening hands. I really dont like limping with a bunch of limpers on micro's.

UTG: AJ+/KQs/
MP: UTG range w/ AT/A9s/KQo
CO: UTG range w/ A7s+/A8o+/KT+/QT+/JT+/SC (On table image maybe some more aces)
BTN: Ax+/KT+/QT+/JT/SC/(Sometimes S(G)C when the blinds are tight)

I raise any pair from any position.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty lose, isn't it? I mean, you play some marginal hands like Axo and KTo. I guess you play the button well. How do you usually play it? Do you raise it in unopened pots, always? How aggressively do you first and second barrel?

[ QUOTE ]
(How i don't loose dunnow, sometimes I hit BB specials who pay me off. I raise if the SB completes --> cbet)

[/ QUOTE ]

There you go. This may be a winning formula for BB play in uNL. Don't people pick up on you, though?

[Drainbamaged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Loc0Loc0, how on earth do you play not to lose from BB, but from SB? What hands do you play from respective position? How do you play them? Over how many hands are your statistics gathered?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just from a small sample size.. I was winner from the bb till i hit like 16k hands.. snag a few monsters and you're set for awhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

[Loc0Loc0]

6 max This is the formula for SSNL i think... Climbing up you should tighten a little (100NL+).
But when villains on SSNL keep thinking TP is TEH NUTS... U get payed of a lot of times when u hit 2p or better.

The range i give is for openening raises... With some limpers in I tighten up a little espescially on the Ax...

It is worth mentioning that you shouldn't complete te SB a lot. I see a lot of players missing ammounts of value. From the SB you complete only the top 15% of hands. And raise only top 5%.
Never complete SGC's, any suited cards, any Ax below 9.

What do we reach by playing this way? Villain can't stand it that you raise so much hands and they going to play balls with you. So when you vind your supreme hand UTG and you raise "again" the very often push down to any PP. This week only i got 5 pushes from PP below 7. What else would i want? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[danny8]

everyone loses with 1 pair hands. the stats that tell you how much you won/lost with each type of hand count every hand you're ever dealt, regardless if you actually folded pf or not.

im down $.5 with straight flushes, because i folded 74s in the bb and would have turned a SF

[kayfish77]

yes i was kidding, but in all sincerity maybe you're not picking the right spots. 10 NL is very easy to crush because as you said it, people call you down with anything. Think about not cbetting into multiway pots, especially drawy ones, and wait to get monsters and take people to valuetown.

[Drainbamaged]

OK, so I'm on the button with a hand I decide to play. The pot is unopened. Do I call or raise?