An objective analysis: Why doesn’t small ball work at micro stakes?

[Marshall28]

An objective analysis: Why doesn’t small ball work at micro stakes?

Basically, the reasons I am writing this article have to do with my lengthy struggle to defeat the micro stakes. I know most of you make this same struggle everyday, otherwise why would you be here, right? I am hoping that through this essay, I can convey the results of my own experiences to you, which should better cement my own understanding of the game, and hopefully help some of you along the way.

So we know what small ball is, right? It’s a method the pros use to nickel and dime away at other players and a way to use their image in order to get action from weaker hands. It’s really successful for them because they have the experience to know when a marginal hand is best, and when it’s not. So when most of us try to imitate this style at the micro stakes, we fall flat on our faces, why is this? Other than the fact that we don’t have the experience that the pros do, I think the problem is that we are attempting to use this method in the wrong medium.

Micro stakes is no place for small ball, for high vpip/pfr play, for making moves. These things just don’t work at micro stakes for a few reasons. One reason, the other players are so erratic that most of the time we can’t categorize their play well enough in order to know the right play to make against them. A second reason, they don’t understand the value of their cards… You can know that a player at micro stakes is c-betting a 9 high flop w/ just ace high, but you can also know that even if you do raise, HES NOT GOING TO FOLD! I’ve been in this situation so many times myself.

I’ve struggled with these problems for months mainly because my friends who play higher stakes explain to me that it’s the way to get good, that eventually it’s going to click and it will work. Another reason is I watch the CardRunners.com videos and I try to emulate what I see, yet have extremely minimal success (this is not to say anything negative about CR, I happen to think it’s a great resource, obviously they are teaching us how to be better poker players in general, but its just not the way to beat the micro stakes games consistently at the skill level we are currently at).

So this is kind of the epiphany that I had. Playing a loose aggressive style is not optimal at micro stakes. I’ve done it myself for a couple of months, I’ve won with it and I’ve lost with it, but that’s not the reason I don’t condone it. The reason it’s not optimal is because it’s not necessary.

Consider this: Winning 3 buy-ins in a day is a pretty good day, wouldn’t you agree? So if you were to play 1000 hands in a day, a very modest task, basically what you would need to do is get yourself into 3 good situations. 3 out of 1000. If you try to play small ball and put yourself in a bunch of marginal situations where you have to make borderline decisions against erratic opponents, it’s just going to cause minor fluctuations in your bankroll (well, sometimes major too, but in most cases where its major, it ends up being in the wrong direction). Sure you may get paid off on a few more occasions than you might have had you been playing tighter, but there are other problems. It causes very high variance, which is extremely conducive to high stress, and there’s always the chance of going bust.

So basically this is what I’m advocating… First, relax; you don’t need to play a lot of pots to win a lot of money. Second, tighten up; stop calling pre-flop raises in marginal situations. Third, stop trying to put a move on a guy you know isn’t going to fold, because most of the time they won’t. And fourth, when you do wake up with a hand, bet the hell out of it.

Guys, this is sooooo easy, I wish I had understood this a few months ago, it would have saved me a lot of undue stress and frustration. The reason playing like this works is because micro stakes players make their own mistakes for you. You don’t have to do anything fancy to cause them to make mistakes, you don’t have to have a high vpip/pfr to get action. Let me repeat this because it’s the most important message here: MICRO STAKES PLAYERS MAKE THEIR OWN MISTAKES FOR YOU! You don’t have to do anything but play solid and they will do all the work. All you have to do is be patient, wait for a hand, and when you do get one in an extremely favorable situation, bet it as strongly as you can. These players are so bad that they will think you are bluffing enough of the time even if you haven’t shown down one weak hand (Remember, if they think you are bluffing just three times in one session, that’s three buy-ins). There are plenty of other occasions though when you do have a set and will nail someone w/ tptk or two pair, so they don’t even have to think you are bluffing every time, they will just overvalue their hand (one of their common mistakes). When a donk sees like a pot sized bet, the first thing he thinks is you are trying to buy the pot. Capitalize on this and it will pay great dividends, I promise.

So anyways, I have been considering making a video where I play both styles, 26/22 for a half an hour and 15/13 for a half an hour to illustrate why the tighter way to go is the better way, if any of you would be interested in this, please respond and let me know.

Thanks for reading.
MF28

[boycalledroy]

Yeah please make a video. I feel the best style is about 22/18 or something like that, with a big dosage of using the button. Simply cos you can pick up $1 at a time per button useage in general!

[James81]

Me too. Show us please.

[losingdonkey]

good post - I'm a reformed 30/20 myself. It took me way too long too realize playing that way will not workout in the longrun at these stakes.

[derosnec]

if you play tight, you play less hands against the fishies.

I think Marshal has some valid points here. I`m currently at 50NL, I have gone thru 5NL, 10NL, 25NL with 20/13 stats and a pretty low winrate. I`m starting at 50NL, only 3000 hands (small sample I know), but have tighten up a bit and Im playing 16/11/3 currently and I think it`s the way to go. Those stats are not nit they are still TAG IMO. The more experience I get postflop the more I will loosen up. Meanwhile I just gonna try to jump a level every 35k hands or so, as I have been doing.

[Marshall28]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah please make a video. I feel the best style is about 22/18 or something like that, with a big dosage of using the button. Simply cos you can pick up $1 at a time per button useage in general!

[/ QUOTE ]

basically at this point i think that abusing the button has gotten to be extremely overrated at micro stakes. reason being, players call too much w/ marginal hands from the blinds, and they call c-bets WAYYYY too often nowadays.

this ends up forcing us into a lot of very marginal situations with marginal hands. this is basically what im trying to avoid. if someone is going to pay me off for 3 streets of value w/ 2nd pr, or tpnk, i think its a waste of time and money trying to get a small amount of value in those marginal spots when there is plenty of value to be had with much less risk in other spots.

[VPIP100]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah please make a video. I feel the best style is about 22/18 or something like that, with a big dosage of using the button. Simply cos you can pick up $1 at a time per button useage in general!

[/ QUOTE ]

basically at this point i think that abusing the button has gotten to be extremely overrated at micro stakes. reason being, players call too much w/ marginal hands from the blinds, and they call c-bets WAYYYY too often nowadays.

this ends up forcing us into a lot of very marginal situations with marginal hands. this is basically what im trying to avoid. if someone is going to pay me off for 3 streets of value w/ 2nd pr, or tpnk, i think its a waste of time and money trying to get a small amount of value in those marginal spots when there is plenty of value to be had with much less risk in other spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

then raise more.

Ill think Ill write an article soon how to deal with very loose/aggresive+ passive tables, and yet steal the blinds every single time.

[Marshall28]

if you could write an article on how to steal your loose opponents blinds every time, you could probably sell it for a lot of money ...

similar to an article on how to not get sucked out on.

itd be worth millions if it were possible, lol.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Marshall,

the problem isn't playing small-ball or whatever. It sounds like you keep trying to make big "high-stakes moves" on people when you know it won't work, but you are trying it anyway because you saw Aba doing it in a CR video.

The real lesson here is don't try to do advanced stuff until you are ready for it. If your handreading skills are not good enough to play more hands, then don't play more hands. Play tight and straightforward and you will make good monbies, since the fish are making their own mistakes. Playing lag when you are not ready for it means you start making huge mistakes yourself: this is the problem here.

[Marshall28]

Big Poppa Smurf,

I think you overlooked the entire article, and only read the part that said "Another reason is I watch the CardRunners.com videos and I try to emulate what I see, yet have extremely minimal success" ...

did you even think to interpret what that meant? lol, you just decide to attack my play (which u know nothing of) and dismiss my conclusion.

maybe if you actually read it without making such hasty generalizations, you'll understand the point made.

[hoyasaxa]

The beauty of poker is that so many different styles of play can win. I have definately found some success playing LAG at the .10/.25 and .25/.50 levels. It works a lot better shorthanded, 6 max. I love raising in position with absolute junk and pushing the hand through. Even if I get called down sometimes and show the hand im firing bullets with, i use the table image to my advantage. People call me down with middle and bottom pair, pocket 8s with an a k 10 board.

What it all comes down to is your ability to minimize losses when youre caught and pick up a couple big pots getting paid off big time when you shouldnt. This is huge for me, since i always get tons of action after a while at the table. I flop a set against an opponent with AK and an ace comes out, his stack is mine.

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
basically at this point i think that abusing the button has gotten to be extremely overrated at micro stakes. reason being, players call too much w/ marginal hands from the blinds, and they call c-bets WAYYYY too often nowadays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that raising with random crap from the button is rather spewy. However, the most profitable place is still gonna be the button, and if you're gonna play marginal hands you'd play it from there. I'd also agree that people call a lot of cbets as well so you should not cbet blindly.

You should remember if they are that passive, it's very possible that you can take your hand to showdown, and chances are the stuff you raise with is better than the crap they call with. Remember donkament logic= the blinds have random hands. Sometimes, if someone is so passive, I don't mind checking to the river and winning with King high or whatever.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
I flop a set against an opponent with AK and an ace comes out, his stack is mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

His stack would be yours regardless of your table image unless you have the image of being a huge nit. You don't need to lose money getting caught bluffing in order to get paid off when you have a set against AK TPTK in a raised pot, which I guess kinda supports Marshall's point in this thread.

[Marshall28]

right on dilznoofus, thx for the support.

i def agree w/ what archon wing said as well. i never said anything like "dont raise the button" ... of course you should be looser from the button than from EP, my only point in regards to this was that if u r using the button merely for your fold equity on the flop, and place no value in the cards you are holding, you are going to be constantly running into a wall, cuz u r gonna bet, bet bet, and they arent going to fold. u end up w/ 7 high, and their busted straight draw beats u w/ J high...

the biggest advantage you have over weaker players is playing better cards in better position.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Marshall,

I read the entire OP. I also know where you are coming from, as this is always something I have struggled with when moving up levels, and I think you are taking unneccessary offense with my reply.

This is what you said:[ QUOTE ]
So basically this is what I’m advocating… First, relax; you don’t need to play a lot of pots to win a lot of money. Second, tighten up; stop calling pre-flop raises in marginal situations. Third, stop trying to put a move on a guy you know isn’t going to fold, because most of the time they won’t. And fourth, when you do wake up with a hand, bet the hell out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I said: [ QUOTE ]
The real lesson here is don't try to do advanced stuff until you are ready for it. If your handreading skills are not good enough to play more hands, then don't play more hands. Play tight and straightforward and you will make good monbies, since the fish are making their own mistakes. Playing lag when you are not ready for it means you start making huge mistakes yourself: this is the problem here.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are basically saying the same thing. You are attributing the problem to the games themselves and your opponents, saying that you shouldn't make moves or play lag because many times it doesn't work or is unnecessary to winning play. All I did was add the caveat that many times, lag play at these limits fails because the person implementing it doesn't know what they are doing.

We all lurk high stakes and watch videos of high limit players making sick plays, that part of my post wasn't meant to be an insult directed towards you or anyone else. All I was trying to say is that lag play and big moves can work, but you have to make sure you know why you're doing it and who you are doing it against. Otherwise you will just be spewing. This is true not only for micro-stakes but for poker in general.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Just to clarify again, playing lag fails at these limits (and really at any limit) when you don't play it correctly. We are all micro players here and still have ridiculous amounts to learn about the game, and lots of experience to garner before we can be good at poker and prepared for higher limits. Many posters here (myself included) get caught up in the e-peen waving of "how high can I get my vpip?" or "look how many sick plays I can make" but they lack the experience or knowledge to consistently make those plays successfully.

So just play straightforward and pay attention and think about the game, and one day things will just click. You'll be in a spot and just naturally think to yourself "a bluff will work here" or "he can't call this raise" or "I'm ahead of his range and his line is whack, I can call this" or what have you. Once you have this experience and familiarity you can lag it up all you want and start making plays since you are good enough then to do it. But making statements like "you can't do this at unl" is flat out wrong and misleading advice.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
if you play tight, you play less hands against the fishies.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true. Playing more hands in good position against the fishiesis the numero uno reason to play 6maxafter all.

However the vast majority of players at uNL are fishies themselves - including everyone who posts on this forum (yes I am including myself here)

If we weren't we'd play and beat higher stakes. What makes us uNL posters better than the rest is we are actively trying to improve our play. Your average McFish is not.

As mentioned in the OP the reason good players do well with small ball is cos they read hands well and know the value of their own hands well as well. The majority of uNL players/posters do NOT, so for most of us LAG play is lighting money on fire like it or not.

uNL is where we lay the foundations for our poker games. And while you should try LAG and experiment with it from time to time (mostly so you understand much better how to play against it well) sticking to ABC TAG play is pretty much optimal down here.

Great post OP. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Marshall28]

Big Poppa Smurf,

The reason I took offense to what u first said was because you appeared to be singling myself out and claiming that these are all mere problems with my game, rather than referring to us collectively as uNL players that make these mistakes.

its chill, I'll let it go ... but to say that the advice is misleading, i think that's going a little too far... I think that you are right in the sense that if you are good enough, you can break any rule, but that doesnt necessarily make breaking all of the rules more optimal.

all im saying is, isnt the best player in the world more apt to play tight if the rest of the table is playing loose? ...

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Marshall,

yeah we're on the same page here, just approaching it from slightly different angles. Once again sorry for any (unintended) offense to anyone, I just know that the problems I have had with this issue are always the result of me biting off more than I could chew and getting in way over my head.

[Nuts102]

I have recently made the transition from stt's to cash games so i can clear the sign up bonus on full tilt alot quicker. Basically im s winning tournament player and struggle at cash games i find im only breaking even at 25c/50c tables. I just cant understand why firstly i have to agree i can put players on a hand make a move and they call down and win. Maybe its just frustration i only joined the site 3 days ago so maybe im on a bad run but no matter what i do i cant win. I sit their wait for a hand but its busted almost everytime. My biggest leak is raisin with AK AQ etc and continuation betting and still gettin called.Also im playing draws to aggressively. I have found making moves at this level is just a waste of time.Has anyone got any tips on how to beat the game consistently or should i just go back to grinding at stt's where i know where i am in hands. Just a bit of a rant needed to get of chest.Also how do you sit down for hours play well get your big hand or 2 of them and get outdrawn and still be able to play well maybe im on tilt ahhhhhhhhhhh

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
all im saying is, isnt the best player in the world more apt to play tight if the rest of the table is playing loose? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. But this gets to the heart of the matter. Is it profitable to play TAG or LAG? The answer is neither. A player that does not adapt to the table conditions is a bad player. IMO, it's better to think of LAG/TAG in terms of plays, not players. I mean it's cool and all to label yourself as a 17/15 or a 26/24 player, but it's ultimately meaningless. Mindlessly following these styles is just as bad as only focusing on your own hand.

Another note, that not everyone who plays uNL is necessarily a calling station. There's an entire host of super-nits as well

But we can all agree on something in uNL. KISS- "Keep it simple, stupid!"

[kayfish77]

lol just 6 table. what limits do u play?

[jjb108]

tight is goot. nh.

[AliasMrJones]

I think think you're mistakenly equating "small ball" with "LAG". These are not the same thing. You can play TAG "small ball". Small ball simply means making money by winning a lot of small pots. This can be done at uNL. I agree with you, though, that some of the plays that gp makes, particularly trying to push people off of weak hands, don't work at uNL where many players just won't fold if they hit any piece of the flop.

[noob_sauce]

[ QUOTE ]
If you try to play small ball and put yourself in a bunch of marginal situations where you have to make borderline decisions against erratic opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

+ EV is +EV, and i'm taking it whenever its being offered...

[noob_sauce]

[ QUOTE ]
Marshall,

I read the entire OP. I also know where you are coming from, as this is always something I have struggled with when moving up levels, and I think you are taking unneccessary offense with my reply.

This is what you said:[ QUOTE ]
So basically this is what I’m advocating… First, relax; you don’t need to play a lot of pots to win a lot of money. Second, tighten up; stop calling pre-flop raises in marginal situations. Third, stop trying to put a move on a guy you know isn’t going to fold, because most of the time they won’t. And fourth, when you do wake up with a hand, bet the hell out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I said: [ QUOTE ]
The real lesson here is don't try to do advanced stuff until you are ready for it. If your handreading skills are not good enough to play more hands, then don't play more hands. Play tight and straightforward and you will make good monbies, since the fish are making their own mistakes. Playing lag when you are not ready for it means you start making huge mistakes yourself: this is the problem here.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are basically saying the same thing. You are attributing the problem to the games themselves and your opponents, saying that you shouldn't make moves or play lag because many times it doesn't work or is unnecessary to winning play. All I did was add the caveat that many times, lag play at these limits fails because the person implementing it doesn't know what they are doing.

We all lurk high stakes and watch videos of high limit players making sick plays, that part of my post wasn't meant to be an insult directed towards you or anyone else. All I was trying to say is that lag play and big moves can work, but you have to make sure you know why you're doing it and who you are doing it against. Otherwise you will just be spewing. This is true not only for micro-stakes but for poker in general.

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't see smurf "attack your style" at any point... you need to quit being such a sensitive douce OP

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you try to play small ball and put yourself in a bunch of marginal situations where you have to make borderline decisions against erratic opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

+ EV is +EV, and i'm taking it whenever its being offered...

[/ QUOTE ]

for most people it's -EV

[Marshall28]

i love getting flamed after spending time trying to write something that might be helpful to some people.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Marshall,

1) its the internet, who cares? it's going to happen regardless of how awesome your post is (or isn't).

2) the only one flaming you is noob_sauce, and he's flaming you for your overreacting, not the post

3) seriously though, you are way too oversensitive

[jonyy6788]

I should just mention that I totally agree with Marshall28 here. Anything above 20/16 is really really unnecessary at NL25 and below. It becomes a little bit more important to start raising more at NL50.

The only bad thing about playing ~17/13 is that when you hit NL100, you might need to revamp your game a little bit to be more aggro. This will lead to postflop play that people will be unfamiliar with. Basically, I'm advocating just grinding out NL10-->NL25-->NL50 and then really really consider working on your game once you're getting close to a bankroll for NL100 (I'm not moving up until at least 3,000 and it will be more likely my BR will be 3,500+ before hitting NL100 this time around). While it may be good for development to try to play 25/22 at NL10, it's not the most profitable for most people and the game at NL50 and up is gonna play way different pre and post flop.

[noob_sauce]

[ QUOTE ]
Marshall,

1) its the internet, who cares? it's going to happen regardless of how awesome your post is (or isn't).

2) the only one flaming you is noob_sauce, and he's flaming you for your overreacting, not the post

3) seriously though, you are way too oversensitive

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously... maybe I was a bit misunderstood. Thank you for taking time to post this. I think it is definitely of value, and I appreciate the effort that you put into it...

but with that being said, I just read you being hypersensitive to smurf's response, which in my opinion had a valid point. I was left with the general disagreement that he seemed to have after reading the entire OP and thought it was awfully lame for you to be soooo sensitive.

oh yeah, and quit being a crybaby you big douche...
wah, i knew i'd be flamed, wahhhhhh ... cry me a river suzy

[prodonkey]

OP I have almost 8k hands of you in my db.. at 25/20/3.5 you border on maniacal at times.. and are way too willing to play for your stack with crap when you think you can make people fold.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
I should just mention that I totally agree with Marshall28 here. Anything above 20/16 is really really unnecessary at NL25 and below. It becomes a little bit more important to start raising more at NL50.

The only bad thing about playing ~17/13 is that when you hit NL100, you might need to revamp your game a little bit to be more aggro. This will lead to postflop play that people will be unfamiliar with. Basically, I'm advocating just grinding out NL10-->NL25-->NL50 and then really really consider working on your game once you're getting close to a bankroll for NL100 (I'm not moving up until at least 3,000 and it will be more likely my BR will be 3,500+ before hitting NL100 this time around). While it may be good for development to try to play 25/22 at NL10, it's not the most profitable for most people and the game at NL50 and up is gonna play way different pre and post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 24/18 and beat NL2 for 29 PTBB/100 (admittedly running hot), NL5 for 10, and NL10 for 8. I think the issue is really with game selection and learning to quickly build a functional profile of how any given opponent plays. Not to mention, I've distinctly noticed that being aggressive does a really nice job of creating a table image that causes opponents to let you build a nice pot with your big hands since they tend to think that you are a lot more spewy than you really are. Yes, your opponents will make the mistakes for you, but why not do what you can to induce them to make even bigger mistakes more frequently?

As an example from today's session at NL25, I was to the immediate right of a guy for about 45 minutes who was a complete nit when I got there. After a bit he obviously got really sick of my blind steals, raising his c-bets when I had position, and my tendency to semi-bluff OESDs and flush draws. By the end of the his session at that table, he had called me down with TPWK and 4-bet all-in with QQ against my AA. Opening up your game in a deliberate and intelligent fashion causes your opponents to open up theirs in a haphazard and impulsive fashion.

Also, why would you want to learn a new playing style at $50 a buy-in when you can do it at $10 a buy-in and have the mistakes you make learning it be less costly?

[Phytopath]

I will say that alot depends. There are times when I log on to my usual site and it is just loaded with fish at NL50/100 (the stakes I am comfortable with) and then small ball poker certainly doesn't work I just sit back and play my aggressive value betting style against fish and value calling against the lagtards.

However, other times it seems there are loads of nits with very few live ones, then you need to small ball them to death. This isn't as profitable as swimming with the fishes however it certainly also works.

[jonyy6788]

b/c playing 25/22 is different at NL10 than it is at NL100

[Poker Gestalt]

[ QUOTE ]
Those stats are not nit they are still TAG IMO.

[/ QUOTE ] -talking about 16/11/3 or something...

i disagree with this. what is standard? its like 20/12/3? something like that. 4% is alot; and i consider it nit.

on another note i have been playing a 21/19/3ish game for the past 35k hands at 25nl with a winrate of 10ptbb/100. idk if you consider those stats lag or not but this has worked great for me. I do make moves and play small ball quite a bit but as others have said you have to know how your marginal hand matchs up with villians range/actions/board etc.

...on another side note i start 50nl tommrow /images/graemlins/smile.gif


EDIT: [ QUOTE ]
Opening up your game in a deliberate and intelligent fashion causes your opponents to open up theirs in a haphazard and impulsive fashion.

[/ QUOTE ] GOLD

[bsheck]

I don't think what OP is describing is small ball. It isn't about LAGging it up and trying to outplay everyone, it's exactly the opposite. It's sitting back and picking your spots. Instead of playing power poker you play a little more passively and play smaller pots, unless you have a big hand of course. You avoid putting a lot of money at risk in marginal situations.

I consider myself to be a smallball player and I've had success playing it. Mainly I make two adjustments. The first is preflop. While I will raise a fair amount, I rarely ever come over the top. I flat call with hands like AK and JJ. I like to learn more about my opponent's hand before committing a lot of money.

I will say that I basically do abuse the button, if you want to call it that. I will call with a lot of hands, any connector down to 54, any suited one gapper down to maybe 75s, any pair, and any suited ace. I'm looking for a big payday if I hit big of course, but I will also take my fair share of small pots because of my position. So I will call a raise with those hands.

Out of the blinds I will play more tightly, flat calling with some good hands (again, not coming over the top), calling with small pairs, and folding everything else.

After the flop my major adjustment is that I tend to bet small. I will rarely hit the bet pot button, I like to keep it at 2/3 of the pot, sometimes even less if I can get away with it. That way I can still charge draws, but don't tie myself to the pot. I will also on occasion check behind on the turn with top pair hands and such to control the pot size.

I'm not saying this is the best style, but it works for me. I enjoy playing after the flop. I don't like to put a lot of money at risk unless it's warranted. I think I'm better off giving up a small immediate edge preflop by playing more passively and using my postflop edge.

[Stake Monster]

Like everything else in poker it all depends on the players around you. There is no style that is a "winning style", the only way to win consistently at ANY limit is to vary your play according to how the people at the table are playing.

(that disregards the very micro limits where people don't really think much.)

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think what OP is describing is small ball. It isn't about LAGging it up and trying to outplay everyone, it's exactly the opposite. It's sitting back and picking your spots. Instead of playing power poker you play a little more passively and play smaller pots, unless you have a big hand of course. You avoid putting a lot of money at risk in marginal situations.

I consider myself to be a smallball player and I've had success playing it. Mainly I make two adjustments. The first is preflop. While I will raise a fair amount, I rarely ever come over the top. I flat call with hands like AK and JJ. I like to learn more about my opponent's hand before committing a lot of money.

I will say that I basically do abuse the button, if you want to call it that. I will call with a lot of hands, any connector down to 54, any suited one gapper down to maybe 75s, any pair, and any suited ace. I'm looking for a big payday if I hit big of course, but I will also take my fair share of small pots because of my position. So I will call a raise with those hands.

Out of the blinds I will play more tightly, flat calling with some good hands (again, not coming over the top), calling with small pairs, and folding everything else.

After the flop my major adjustment is that I tend to bet small. I will rarely hit the bet pot button, I like to keep it at 2/3 of the pot, sometimes even less if I can get away with it. That way I can still charge draws, but don't tie myself to the pot. I will also on occasion check behind on the turn with top pair hands and such to control the pot size.

I'm not saying this is the best style, but it works for me. I enjoy playing after the flop. I don't like to put a lot of money at risk unless it's warranted. I think I'm better off giving up a small immediate edge preflop by playing more passively and using my postflop edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.. I've played with him a few times.. he's very quick to 3 bet and try to bludgeon people with his stack... that is not at all small ball.

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening up your game in a deliberate and intelligent fashion causes your opponents to open up theirs in a haphazard and impulsive fashion.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, this is the key to playing a LAG style.

I play an 28/22 game. I classify my self as a LAG. I win 8.38 PTBB/100.

Stats don't mean [censored]. Play what makes you comfortable and keep an open mind to potential change.

To put it simply, I feel I have a good grasp of hand reading. I take people off weak and marginal hands. I reraise liberally preflop. I bet my draws, and fire the river when I miss. I play aggresively, but I always think carefully.

Honestly, I think being a LAG is all about momentum. Aggresion pays, it's so true. But being a maniac is lighting money on fire. Pick your spots carefully. Poker Tracker is my best friend. Use the stats. Take notes. Pay attention. You can find so many opportunities. You CAN small ball this limit to death, I do it, and also win stacks because of my image as well.

However... just because a LAG is loose doesn't mean he has to call everything preflop. I don't call raises with hands that are easily dominated preflop. I don't like to get involved in pots I don't open because I don't have control of the hand. This means I tend to fold KQ to a raise, because I don't control action, don't want to see an ace flop, don't want them to turn over AQ, etc. Rather I tend to play 97s, and play it smart postflop. I want to play hands where I put pressure on them, not the other way around. Being a LAG also doesn't mean shoving your stack in there at any opportunity. Play smart. Shove your combo draws, your two pairs and sets or whatever else you do. Don't shove because you feel like you have to, to be LAG. You DON'T have to bluff the flop/turn/river. Giving up isn't a crime, it's a critical skill to playing LAG. In many cases their hand range should be so defined that you should just give it up, or on the flip side, should fire at the pot. Spend some time learning the villian's lines, it's so critical.

I know I have a ton of leaks. I tend to call 3 bets too light. That's a huge leak, and one I really need to work out of my system. But being a LAG at 50nl... isn't wrong. It's just different. A TAG game is the standard, but that doesn't mean being a LAG doesn't work. I fully believe that if you are not good enough to beat 50nl, it doesn't matter which you play. LAG may be harder to play, it may not be optimal here, but I can win here, and I'm pretty sure I can win at 100nl. Might be able to go beyond that without any change in my skill at the moment. Don't know, that might be saying too much.

I don't know what else to say. I'm kinda tired.

I play LAG, I win, and I have fun.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt... I know I'm not the best player, far far from it, but I feel that I can crush the micros with my game. Listen to everything with an open mind, and sort everything you learn into worthwhile and bad information. This is the real key to improving.

GL all. See you across the felt.

jonyy6788, I disagree that you have to loosen your game at 100nl. I have only tried it a few times, but I don`t understand why it should be so different. I do think that at much higher stakes it`s probably necessary. I play pretty nitty now cause I moved up to 50NL recently, but I`m sure I will be playing my usual stats in a couple of weeks wich are 20/13/3. I would believe that aggression is very important the more you move up, but more looseness I don`t think so.

Btw there are a couple of very solid middle and high stakes pros who play tag or even nit.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think what OP is describing is small ball. It isn't about LAGging it up and trying to outplay everyone, it's exactly the opposite. It's sitting back and picking your spots. Instead of playing power poker you play a little more passively and play smaller pots

[/ QUOTE ]

Small Ball is defined in HOH2 as:

smallball is a style based on making small moves at pots, blending probe and continuation bets, or calls followed by small raises, or bets based on position to pull down pots cheaply without much of a hand. The key word here is "cheap." Since not all of these moves will work, don't invest a lot of money in any particular move. Just keep bobbing and weaving ... stealing small pots while you wait for the big hand that doubles you up"

Which imo pretty much describes LAG play.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree.. I've played with him a few times.. he's very quick to 3 bet and try to bludgeon people with his stack... that is not at all small ball.

[/ QUOTE ]

prodonkey:

thats the 2nd time in this thread you've called out OP for playing LAG /images/graemlins/confused.gif

from the OP:

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I had understood this a few months ago, it would have saved me a lot of undue stress and frustration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read that as "I used to play LAG lots and now I play TAG and I find I have much more success with it"

So what's your point prodonkey?

all:

Please keep posts in uNL civil. This thread is starting to turn into a flame fest. Unnecessary flaming isn't good for anyone.

Some players can play LAG style well and make a good return - most players can't. When you are starting out it makes much more sense to play simple ABC TAG until you have more experience. If you can play LAG well then good for you. There is after all more than one way to fillet a fish. Thats no reason tho to bash OP.

Play nice people.

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]
jonyy6788, I disagree that you have to loosen your game at 100nl. I have only tried it a few times, but I don`t understand why it should be so different. I do think that at much higher stakes it`s probably necessary. I play pretty nitty now cause I moved up to 50NL recently, but I`m sure I will be playing my usual stats in a couple of weeks wich are 20/13/3. I would believe that aggression is very important the more you move up, but more looseness I don`t think so.

Btw there are a couple of very solid middle and high stakes pros who play tag or even nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play nitty tight like 18/12 or thereabouts. I fold alot Kxs and broadway *junk* in late position. There's a post by edge in SSNL about playing tight preflop that says this better than what I can. However I do believe raising more preflop @ NL100 is the way to go based on recent experiences where the blinds fold much more often, then again I dont want to get 3bet so often with marginal hands so still not sure on this one.


[ QUOTE ]

Small Ball is defined in HOH2 as:

smallball is a style based on making small moves at pots, blending probe and continuation bets, or calls followed by small raises, or bets based on position to pull down pots cheaply without much of a hand. The key word here is "cheap." Since not all of these moves will work, don't invest a lot of money in any particular move. Just keep bobbing and weaving ... stealing small pots while you wait for the big hand that doubles you up"


[/ QUOTE ]

From a book written by tight image Harrington, this is what us tighties can use our advanatge to. When I steal small pots, semi-bluff/3bet light villans have to give me credit just looking at my stats and since many of these hands don't go to showdown villans rarely know I'm doing it.

In HOH1 Harrington mentions this about plays opposite to your image work best for you - somewhere where he describes the various preflop styles.


I think I need to get HOH2 ( got HOH1 and think that's pretty g00t but am somewhat put off by the tourneyness) , gotta use those spare FTPs for something *cough* ship electronics to Europe.

Just my 2 pence /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[prodonkey]

I don't have a point.. post count +1

[fccz]

I'm a beginer, can someone explain to me what 20/13/3 means ???

[prodonkey]

20 is % of time you voluntarily put money in the pot.. 13 is the % of time you preflop raise.. 3 is total agression factor according to poker tracker.. which means he raises 3 times as often as calls.

Isn't this stuff in the faq?

[Marshall28]

When i wrote the original post, I didn't really consider exactly what I was talking about I suppose. LAG isn't exactly what I want to say 'doesn't work' because I've definitely had some success w/ it in the past. Small ball, however, after I think about it more, is still a lot of what I'm doing even though my play is tighter. I guess the essential point to the post was that we do know it to be true that playing LAG will get us more action from our opponents when we have a big hand, but it's actually quite unnecessary as micro stakes opponents have the tendency to pay us off regardless of our image (because for the most part they don't consider it). Plus the fact that playing LAG gets us in a lot of marginal spots post flop where its quite difficult to make the correct decision.

BUT ANYWAYS, I was trying to point out that those pots where you are splashing around a lot, the 10-20bb sized pots... you don't need to win those, or even be involved in them, you really only need to win a few big hands a day to be a very successful player.

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
When i wrote the original post, I didn't really consider exactly what I was talking about I suppose. LAG isn't exactly what I want to say 'doesn't work' because I've definitely had some success w/ it in the past. Small ball, however, after I think about it more, is still a lot of what I'm doing even though my play is tighter. I guess the essential point to the post was that we do know it to be true that playing LAG will get us more action from our opponents when we have a big hand, but it's actually quite unnecessary as micro stakes opponents have the tendency to pay us off regardless of our image (because for the most part they don't consider it). Plus the fact that playing LAG gets us in a lot of marginal spots post flop where its quite difficult to make the correct decision.

BUT ANYWAYS, I was trying to point out that those pots where you are splashing around a lot, the 10-20bb sized pots... you don't need to win those, or even be involved in them, you really only need to win a few big hands a day to be a very successful player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooo but you'll get called a nit /images/graemlins/blush.gif
Hope you can fade that /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Heh I have a theory that if one just kinda sat there at an NL25 table and took what they were given they'd beat it for a decent rate (not sure how much, not enough data /images/graemlins/frown.gif) As long as one can do that, the rest is jam. LAG, TAG whatever.