50NL RR Pot vs MARATHONER (bad LAG)

[0evg0]

Either you know him or you don't. If you don't, you probably should just move on to a new thread.

He accidentally made a nice flop bet here, but do I have any FE on a turn? I know how he plays preflop, but is he betting the turn with AQ here? With air? With what frequency? And I'm guessing since he sucks, he's never folding AK here either.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($110.20)
Button ($36.35)
SB ($60)
BB ($11.65)
UTG ($5.60)
Hero ($56.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $5.75</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $3.75.

Flop: ($12.25) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $5.75</font>, Hero calls $5.75.

Turn: ($23.75) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $11.25</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $35

[meleader2]

two things with this guy, and to be honest i don't know why i'm sharing them with you but from the looks of his play you are beat...i've never seen him 3 bet. always in the CO/button he'd raise to steal, but it would always be a [censored] raise like 3bbs and i'd come over the top, he'd think and fold. every time.

also, one other thing, you can float him and steal it on the turn i've had a lot of success vs him with that yesterday. he stopped trying to steal when i had pos on him eventually.

so ya, nice fold

edited to add: u called a flop bet getting 3:1, ur getting the same amount on the turn...wouldn't he bet more with a better hand?

[0evg0]

I've seen him 3bet plenty, and about 100 hands before he 3bet me in the exact same spot to the same amount with 99.

[allaboutmyfetti]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen him 3bet plenty, and about 100 hands before he 3bet me in the exact same spot to the same amount with 99.

[/ QUOTE ]
uh ... i still don't think this justfies playing 64s OOP in a RR'd pot. Seroiusly, even if his re-raising range is super wide, the majority of this range has to crush 64s ... &amp; i don't think you can make up for it in implied.

I think the rest is fine ... I wouldn't try to out-lag a lag by pushing him off a hand, i'd just wait and push more marginal hands with showdown value (as well as monsters of courses)

[0evg0]

Look at the size of his reraise. Odds are too good to fold, especially since his range is so wide.

[barryc83]

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Look at the size of his reraise. Odds are too good to fold, especially since his range is so wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have one of the worst hands possible in holdem (esp HU OOP), and youre getting 2:1 on the call pf, let it go.

[0evg0]

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You have one of the worst hands possible in holdem

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, that's why I don't post here.

[gumpzilla]

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And I'm guessing since he sucks, he's never folding AK here either.

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If he's really LAG it would probably be a bad decision for him to fold AK here because it's likely to be at the high end of his range.

Your plan seems off to me. OOP against a LAG may not be the best place to call with this particular hand UNLESS you're planning on a bluff c/r or the like pretty often. And if you are, this seems like a pretty good board for it. I don't think the odds are really that great PF, and if he's going to be firing most flops, you're paying an awful lot of money to draw, on average. Or does he usually bet this small on the flop?

[allaboutmyfetti]

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You have one of the worst hands possible in holdem

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, that's why I don't post here.

[/ QUOTE ]
lawl. ask yourself .. are you really going to make up the implied odds in order to make this pf call? can you outplay him postflop OOP in a re-raised pot. If he's a superdonk like you allude to, I assume that means he's a showdown monkey which you not going to push him off any kind of had in the near future, which means you need to hit a REALLY strong hand to make any kind of $, and even then we're only 100BB deep. The combination of all these things make 64s pretty much worthless.

stop posting questions asking for advice n then down-talkin advice that you don't want to hear.

[0evg0]

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UNLESS you're planning on a bluff c/r or the like pretty often.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the plan.

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And if you are, this seems like a pretty good board for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an optimal way to play every hand, if you start allowing what your plan was to dictate what line you take instead of taking what is simply optimal, you're making a mistake.

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Or does he usually bet this small on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

More or les, yes.

[barryc83]

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You have one of the worst hands possible in holdem

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Oh yeah, that's why I don't post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just giving my opinion, I'll stay out of your threads.

[gumpzilla]

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And if you are, this seems like a pretty good board for it.

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There's an optimal way to play every hand, if you start allowing what your plan was to dictate what line you take instead of taking what is simply optimal, you're making a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, any such optimal way to play it is going to be dependent on your strategy in general (i.e., what kind of ranges you can have, etc.) and so I don't think this statement is at all clear. I think calling PF if you aren't going to be c/r'ing this particular flop more often than not is probably not the greatest of plans. I doubt your implied odds are as good as you think they are.

[whiteladder81]

He 3bets me every hand I open and I am a nit! I think you played it fine, just let him keep betting when you hit your hand. Here is a very similiar hand but I hit mine.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($59.40)
UTG ($90.80)
MP ($32.70)
CO ($12.30)
Hero ($56.15)
SB ($38.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $6.5</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($13.75) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $9.8</font>, Hero calls $9.80.

Turn: ($33.35) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $31.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $39.85</font>, BB calls $8.10.

River: ($113.05) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $113.05

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
Hero has 7h 9h (flush, ten high).
Outcome: Hero wins $113.05. </font>

[meleader2]

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I've seen him 3bet plenty, and about 100 hands before he 3bet me in the exact same spot to the same amount with 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

evg, was he 3betting you because u were raising him alot? or was he 3betting everyone. were u 3betting him at all? if so, was it everytime?

if u 3 bet and he called, what happened on the flops?
if he 3 bet and you called, how'd the flop line go?

[derosnec]

fold pf.

it's essentially a raise from $2 to $6 pf. even if you had a small pp instead, it's likely not +ev to call pf, but here your flush won't be disguised like a pp to give you the necessary implied odds. only your straight/two/trips would be disguised and you're not hitting those nearly enough on the flop for this to be profitable.

against a lag in position,, even a bad one, your pf line - from the raise to the call - just can't be profitable

[0evg0]

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fold pf.

it's essentially a raise from $2 to $6 pf. even if you had a small pp instead, it's likely not +ev to call pf, but here your flush won't be disguised like a pp to give you the necessary implied odds. only your straight/two/trips would be disguised and you're not hitting those nearly enough on the flop for this to be profitable.

against a lag in position,, even a bad one, your pf line - from the raise to the call - just can't be profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

first, it's not 2-6 it's 2-5.75. which actually makes a difference.

second, are you trying to say this would be a fold pf with a pair? WTF.

i had not been 3betting him, and he'd been 3betting everyone at the table, not just me in particular.

[derosnec]

as far as a small pp, you need roughly 10 to 1, but i'd set the odds higher to compensate for the fact that against bad lags we have a tendency to go further than the flop with small pps when we don't flop a set and are beat

as for the difference between 5.75 and 6, if it makes a big difference, so be it

but the big red flag here is the pf raise in MP with 64s when you know the lagtard is in LP

[matrix]

preflops fine *unless* he has a pair. If he only 3bets with pp's this is a very easy fold preflop - if he'll 3bet AK then it's gravy, tho I'd much prefer to be doing this with a bigger stack. 200BB deep this is a call all day - with a little over 100BB it's thin.

(we're a 40/60 dog to unpaired Overcards and a 20/80 dog to an overpair - getting 2.7:1 or thereabouts)

I'd probably fold to the 3bet preflop - it depends lots on recent history I think.


if we had a pp this is a simple call if he's the type to stack off with AK on an A high flop or an overpair - if he's more of a nit post and only gets his stack in with nuts or near nuts then it would be a marginal call pre with a pp.

I'd guess you have almost no FE with effective stacks as they are. If you were 200 deep then a turn push is very sexy (if a little high variance) cos then you have bundles of FE.

as played it looks pretty standard I think.

How often does he show up with a better FD here do you think? Whats his range on the turn?

[Big Poppa Smurf]

evg,

I make this call a lot preflop too, but I've given it up lately (mostly because I suck at playing OOP in 3bet pots). Whatever I'm not going to argue with it, but keep in mind it's really hard to flop a hand you feel super comfortable felting, and lots of times hands will just play out like this one. I also think you can't call here all the time with small pairs, with just 100bb the call is close especially against someone who is going to make it tough on you postflop OOP

[pokerOpus]

why would you fold your FD on the turn getting 3-1 when you still have almost 30 behind when you call????

[0evg0]

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why would you fold your FD on the turn getting 3-1 when you still have almost 30 behind when you call????

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when we have 9 clean outs he's not putting any more money in when we hit one, and when he is willing to put more money in when we hit our flush, we have 7 outs.

[pokerOpus]

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why would you fold your FD on the turn getting 3-1 when you still have almost 30 behind when you call????

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Because when we have 9 clean outs he's not putting any more money in when we hit one, and when he is willing to put more money in when we hit our flush, we have 7 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying he will fold to your river bet everytime the heart gets there unless he has a flush? I would think he is felting AK AJ and any set here.

[0evg0]

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why would you fold your FD on the turn getting 3-1 when you still have almost 30 behind when you call????

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Because when we have 9 clean outs he's not putting any more money in when we hit one, and when he is willing to put more money in when we hit our flush, we have 7 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying he will fold to your river bet everytime the heart gets there unless he has a flush? I would think he is felting AK AJ and any set here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll put it in simpler terms so you don't get confused.

He either has a set/AK here (in which case I don't have 9 clean outs), or he has air (in which case I'm never getting paid when I hit).

[Nocturnal]

Calling this reraise vs this player is incredibly standard preflop.

Planning to checkraise turn on a bluff though is pretty bad as I've seen him make big calls with top pair plenty of times and feel his range is heavily slanted towards two pair/set here. Also, he doesn't fire the turn as much as any other street, I'm pretty sure he's felting a huge majority of the range he bets on the turn here.

For those posters saying that his reraising range crushes 64s... obv, but I think our implied odds are huge. I call the reraise up to $6.

I play the hand exactly the same way thereafter.

[orange]

c/r AI on the flop.