KK vs unknown; at this limit what would I do different?

[catfish_01]

I don't know this villian; he's been at my table for a few rounds and seemed unremarkable. What I don't like about this situation:

-On the flop I feel pretty beat but against an unknown at this limit I do not know that I can just let go of an overpair since it does beat some range of hands that might make this play. It seems to be a bigger mistake to fold than to call.

-The turn and river doesn't change much except on the river he may have a busted flush. If he had that he'd probably not bet or bluff more. I can't see value in raising but it still seems a mistake to fold.

I guess I'm figuring that it's a nasty situation but I can't see how to play it differently. I have a friend who plays medium stakes and says that at that level he sees so much aggression it is much easier to believe that in this situation he is ahead.

So what about at this limit?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Button ($9.50)
SB ($2.95)
BB ($11)
UTG ($2.20)
Hero ($14.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40, UTG folds.

Flop: ($1.60) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.25</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $2.5</font>, Hero calls $1.25.

Turn: ($6.60) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $1.3</font>, Hero calls $1.30.

River: ($9.20) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2.

Final Pot: $13.20

[cb4mvp]

Maybe the BB called with a 3. Just as likely he has a flush draw or maybe called with A5 or something like that. Could easily have an overpair like 66+. If he has a 3, oh well. I say push the flop to his reraise, honestly. On the flop, all we're behind is 55, unless you want to give him credit for a 3.

[Dr_Mabuse101]

At this level I would shove the flop. Sometimes they have a FH, but very often they have a weaker Hand and will call your shove with 66-QQ or a drawing Hand.

[kolotoure]

If I am calling flop it is to jam turn

[Skleice]

push flop.

[RollTide77]

Just follow the 3-4BB + 1BB for every limper rule for raising. Don't raise more just because you have KK. Flop is fine. Turn is tricky and requires a read. Would he call this PF with A-rag? If so you only beat A4 and A5. If not then he has JJ, QQ, AA, or 55. You're like 50/50 so I probably would just call this down cheap. On the river, for $2 I'll probably make the call as well.

[RollTide77]

[ QUOTE ]
push flop.

[/ QUOTE ]He's not RR with a draw so he's either got you beat or totally bluffing. I'd hate to wager $11 at 10NL on a coin flip with just top pair.

[catfish_01]

[ QUOTE ]
Just follow the 3-4BB + 1BB for every limper rule for raising. Don't raise more just because you have KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a problem here; my standard raise is 4x. There was a UTG poster who checked so I raised 5x.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
push flop.

[/ QUOTE ]He's not RR with a draw so he's either got you beat or totally bluffing. I'd hate to wager $11 at 10NL on a coin flip with just top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

?????????????? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

double-u tee eff?

The chance you have him crushed&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;chance you are beat.

OP,

Shutting down here once you get raised is really w/t and well, poor poker. To most, if not all villains, 66 is teh nutz. Lets get some money in there. You should be c/r AI on the turn or raising AI on the flop.

[derosnec]

a worse hand (pp, flush draw) leads this flop in my experience, though it's possible that TT-QQ might c/r.

anwyays, i still push flop.

[BevillTheDevil]

pf standard

flop i get it AI...villian has an overpair here almost always and almost always wont fold it.

[MusashiStyle]

depends on ur read of this player, but getting it in on flop or turn is standard.

[RollTide77]

[ QUOTE ]
double-u tee eff?

The chance you have him crushed&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;chance you are beat.

OP,

Shutting down here once you get raised is really w/t and well, poor poker. To most, if not all villains, 66 is teh nutz. Lets get some money in there. You should be c/r AI on the turn or raising AI on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
As someone who plays this level, a flop C/R of $2.50 to you after your $0.50 raise PF on this board is not normal and is not a pair of 6s. Especially not when he leads the turn. This is a WA/WB situation. I'm not saying fold. I'm just saying call it down and try to save some bucks. Its not a draw and even if it was, if you shove he'll call and it wouldn't matter if you gave away the free cards. I'm also not saying you should play this way at every level.

[EMc]

Roll,

You are behind 2 hands here. This is not a WA/WB situation in a classical sense. You are WA here way more often than not. You should call and try to save some bucks with AJ on a A93 board, that is more WA/WB situation. This is a lets take this villain to value town situation and then go buy a nice cigar with our profit situation. You advice is incredibly weak tight. If you arent looking to get it in with KK here then what are you looking for? Villains at this level are not rational, they might just c/r you b/c they think you have missed overs and saw Phil Ivey do it. Or they might be bluffing. If you play this situation over 1m times, and get all in at some point in this hand, youd be filthy rich.

[RollTide77]

So by your reasoning, since KK is ahead of the board, you're saying that you'll shove KK on any non-A/non-face paired flop?...assuming its not TJQ or similar.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
So by your reasoning, since KK is ahead of the board, you're saying that you'll shove KK on any non-A flop/non-face paired board?...assuming its not TJQ or similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

To a certain extent. This board is very, very safe and a lot if villains are playing any overpair like the nuts. Villain is also unknown, which more leads to my shove conclusion.

Generally speaking, against an unknown, Ill probably get looking to get KK all in on most boards where I can reasonably identify a villains holding and I am ahead. I wont be looking for a big pot on a 567 board, but a T52 im fine getting arr in.

[RollTide77]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally speaking, against an unknown, Ill probably get looking to get KK all in on most boards where I can reasonably identify a villains holding and I am ahead. I wont be looking for a big pot on a 567 board, but a T52 im fine getting arr in.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not arguing with you that its pretty tight play but I think you have to at this limit to avoid all the landmines of donks out there. And I just don't see you getting a 1 BI shove called on a T52 flop in a 1/3 BI pot by anything less than a set assuming you raised to a normal amount (3-6BBs) PF. And that's not even to mention the times I've raised 3-6BBs with AA, had a flop like K62 and pushed got called with K6. Crap like that happens way too much at 10NL for me to feel comfortable shoving away a BI.

[catfish_01]

I think I should clarify what I meant by an unremarkable villian after 2 rounds: He had basically stayed quiet for 10-12 hands. To me that rules out that he's a completely reckless or gutsy villian--the only type that remains is one who check-raises a flop with a strong hand.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Generally speaking, against an unknown, Ill probably get looking to get KK all in on most boards where I can reasonably identify a villains holding and I am ahead. I wont be looking for a big pot on a 567 board, but a T52 im fine getting arr in.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not arguing with you that its pretty tight play but I think you have to at this limit to avoid all the landmines of donks out there. And I just don't see you getting a 1 BI shove called on a T52 flop in a 1/3 BI pot by anything less than a set assuming you raised to a normal amount (3-6BBs) PF. And that's not even to mention the times I've raised 3-6BBs with AA, had a flop like K62 and pushed got called with K6. Crap like that happens way too much at 10NL for me to feel comfortable shoving away a BI.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is really, really, really bad.

[Skleice]

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not arguing with you that its pretty tight play but I think you have to at this limit to avoid all the landmines of donks out there. And I just don't see you getting a 1 BI shove called on a T52 flop in a 1/3 BI pot by anything less than a set assuming you raised to a normal amount (3-6BBs) PF. And that's not even to mention the times I've raised 3-6BBs with AA, had a flop like K62 and pushed got called with K6. Crap like that happens way too much at 10NL for me to feel comfortable shoving away a BI.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you are playing scared. You can't conserve all of your chips for when you have the nuts. You get them in when you are the favorite and hope they hold up. If there are guys calling your 6bb raise when you have AA and they have K6, then that is your gain and you should be thrilled. Eventually, you will break them.

[RollTide77]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like you are playing scared. You can't conserve all of your chips for when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't say I had to have the nuts. I just said I avoid going AI with one pair at this level. Lets look at this example from the villains point of view...

Stack Sizes:
UTG $10
MP $10
CO $10
BTN $10
SB $10
Hero $10

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.1</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to 0.5</font>, BTN calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Flop: ($1.25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="red">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="red">CO raises AI</font>, BTN folds, Hero?

So you think the average 10NL is making this call with TPTK? I think he's only going to make the call with two pair or better.

Is everyone getting calls alot in this situation?

[IceMuncher]

[ QUOTE ]

So you think the average 10NL is making this call with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Roll,

You are behind 2 hands here. This is not a WA/WB situation in a classical sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the flush draw out there it's not really a WA/WB in any sense.

I'd probably 3-bet all in on the flop, but getting it in on the turn is okay too. If you had TT or something I think your line would make some more sense but a lot of opponents at this level aren't getting away from middle of the road overpairs here.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

OK apparently I'm not in touch with how you guys all play, but I think OP played this ok. Average players at microstakes now don't tend to be calling stations in my experience, they tend to play really nitty and fold a lot. It is really obvious who the calling stations are since they stand out to me.

Anyways as for the specific hand, if I decided not to 3bet the flop I would probably just call down here. I don't even know if I think we're ahead or not, but basically I would look at the pot odds I'm getting and feel like an idiot if I shoved and he flipped a boat or something. I'd just call down and take a note of how he plays.

[Mal_Pais]

Most Villians won't checkraise the flop with the boat. We don't know what his range is, though. I'd have a hard time not stacking off on the flop.

The turn bet smells like a scared overpair. If we're not willing to push the turn, I like calling down here.