NL50 6m: AJ. C-bet an ace on the flop or check behind? [Archive]

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MightySan

03-21-2007, 05:24 AM

Villian is 16/5/2.5 with call pf-raise 6.6 and showdown stats 27/71 after 440 hands. Seems to be tight...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($56.60)
SB ($51.85)
BB ($17.55)
UTG ($42.20)
MP ($48.30)
CO ($20.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, SB (poster) calls $2.25, 1 fold, MP folds.

Flop: ($6) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ...

What is your decision? We can beat only A9. Should we c-bet or not? Suppose, there were no history, rely just on opponent's stats.

Mattby

03-21-2007, 05:33 AM

I would c-bet him 4$ and if he calls I would check behind turn and fold to a big river bet.

prodonkey

03-21-2007, 05:34 AM

c-bet FTW

yeotaJMU

03-21-2007, 05:36 AM

you have to bet this flop. are you going to try and check this hand down? likewise if he calls and checks turn check behind, but im probably calling a river bet unless its very large

0evg0

03-21-2007, 05:40 AM

betting here turns your hand into 56o.

ducy?

yeotaJMU

03-21-2007, 05:41 AM

can u explain? i dont see why

Thremp

03-21-2007, 05:43 AM

Cbet here cause you should be doing it a ton.

Sometimes people will call with Axs etc

0evg0

03-21-2007, 05:46 AM

he is never calling a bet on this flop while behind. ever.

so check and earn at least 1 bet from 77-JJ. if you get reraised, it's an easy fold. if he leads turn AND river, you may be able to fold river depending on the board, but chances are you'll get him to bet for you when he has JT/T9 instead of a PP.

if you check back flop and bet turn, he's ALWAYS calling with a pair when the board is anything but like a T or Q

yeotaJMU

03-21-2007, 05:49 AM

now i see why. ty

0evg0

03-21-2007, 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Cbet here cause you should be doing it a ton.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing anything for the sake of mixing up your play or whatever is bad. Especially at 50nl where exploitability means 1000x less than it does at higher levels.

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes people will call with Axs etc

[/ QUOTE ]

even if this 16/5 did have AXs (which he doesnt), you're still getting the same amount of bets out him whether you decide to bet flop or not. it's not like he's going to C/C you down with his A7s on all 3 streets.

Thremp

03-21-2007, 05:51 AM

evg,

Where do you come up with this stuff?

MightySan

03-21-2007, 06:26 AM

As you will see, I was reasoning somewhat like 0evg0. Decided to check my marginal hand.

Flop: ($6) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($6) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ...

Bet? How much?

takingcontrol

03-21-2007, 06:34 AM

value time. I'd be trying to milk him for 2 dollars here and another two on the river.

Freelancer

03-21-2007, 07:27 AM

Jezus you bet here because villains see you bet the flop all the time and call you with whatever pair/high card they've got (seriously even these nitty villains do this) no reason what so ever to check and let villain spike his out for free.

Also if you bet the flop it doesn't mean that you have to bet the turn/river as well...

danny8

03-21-2007, 07:49 AM

depends how you've been playing... if your raising fairly frequently and c-betting, you have to bet this flop...

If you've been cbetting a lot, he'll call with a very wide range. you cant cbet when you miss, and check when you hit.

as played bet $4 or somehting on the turn

MightySan

03-21-2007, 07:56 AM

Yes... If you c-bet 100% flops, you should c-bet here too. But we are speaking about EV at this spot )). An opponent would call a turn bet with any pair and high card too, if he would call on the flop...
Also some tough guys like to c/r on a bluff when facing c-bet. Then it would be a bad spot for us... I would really prefer to have 56o then ))).
Although, I wouldn't post this hand if I knew the best play here )). Looking for opinions.

aufbruch

03-21-2007, 08:42 AM

I like the c-bet because it allows us to make the least future mistakes with our hand, along with the chance of taking down the pot right there - don't forget that the board still looks scary to villain.

We can happily fold to a flop re-raise or turn donk and we check behind the turn if we get the chance to keep the pot small with our marginal holding.

We'll evaluate river if we get there.

Much of the valuse at these limits is from value-stacking donks. You won't be doing this here. C-bet and take it down or move on knowing you were beat.

CanYouCallThis

03-21-2007, 08:47 AM

Depends on your own style of play. I CB >90% of the time, so I simply have to CB this, in order not to give out a read "hey, I'm holding an Ace".

So if you CB a lot, you should also place a CB here. If not, check and try to get a bet from anypair.

MightySan

03-21-2007, 04:47 PM

Ok. I decided to bet the turn. Slowplay with 2 checks from the villian seemed to be unlikely. So we are ahead - most likely.

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, SB (poster) calls $2.25, 1 fold, MP folds.

Flop: ($6) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($6) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4.

River: ($14) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ...

Hm... Villian called our bet on the turn, but he hasn't a strong hand. As soon as any hand > AJ would bet the river (and more important - the turn), after his third check we are definately going to bet. How much? I don't know whether I've made an optimal bet here...

RunDownHouse

03-21-2007, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
even if this 16/5 did have AXs (which he doesnt), you're still getting the same amount of bets out him whether you decide to bet flop or not. it's not like he's going to C/C you down with his A7s on all 3 streets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, he will do exactly that with his KQ when you check the flop and a K hits on the turn.

Furthermore, you're very wrong about a flop bet turning hero's hand into 56o, for a lot of the same reasons you're wrong about villain never calling a flop bet when behind.

Even farther, you're wrong about him always calling with any pair when hero checks the flop; good luck getting 33 to call a turn bet on a K.

You should probably think things through a little more instead of making absolute statements.

Machavelli

03-21-2007, 05:16 PM

I think you should generally bet this flop. However, its rainbow and not too many draws so its okay.

Turn bet is fine.

River should probably be between 7-9 depending on what he will call

Big Poppa Smurf

03-21-2007, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
betting here turns your hand into 56o.

ducy?

[/ QUOTE ]

no because you are wrong

edit: didn't see villains stats, but you can probably catch him peeling 9T or gutters every once in a while, and sometimes small pairs too. Besides most of the hands we are worried about would raise preflop. Actually that might not be true either. Who cares just bet and if he calls check the turn through and either call a smallish bet or vb him.

ADK

03-21-2007, 06:49 PM

why would you possibly want to check the flop here, pot that flop, if he calls, betting about 1/2 pot on turn.

Big Poppa Smurf

03-21-2007, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why would you possibly want to check the flop here, pot that flop, if he calls, betting about 1/2 pot on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

look at villains stats

MightySan

03-22-2007, 10:45 AM

I bet only $5 on the river. Should I bet more?

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, SB (poster) calls $2.25, 1 fold, MP folds.

Flop: ($6) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($6) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4.

River: ($14) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, SB calls $5.

Final Pot: $24

Results in white below: 
SB has 4d 4s (one pair, fours).
Hero has Ah Jh (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $24.

0evg0

03-22-2007, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I bet only $5 on the river. Should I bet more?

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, SB (poster) calls $2.25, 1 fold, MP folds.

Flop: ($6) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($6) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4.

River: ($14) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, SB calls $5.

Final Pot: $24

Results in white below: 
SB has 4d 4s (one pair, fours).
Hero has Ah Jh (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $24. 

[/ QUOTE ]

i bet $3.50 on turn and then $5.50 on river after that.

nh

EMc

03-22-2007, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he is never calling a bet on this flop while behind. ever.

so check and earn at least 1 bet from 77-JJ. if you get reraised, it's an easy fold. if he leads turn AND river, you may be able to fold river depending on the board, but chances are you'll get him to bet for you when he has JT/T9 instead of a PP.

if you check back flop and bet turn, he's ALWAYS calling with a pair when the board is anything but like a T or Q

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain has typical set miner stats. I totally agree with 0Evg0, there is some great advice right here.