50nl FTP - Reraised pot, but he checks behind flop?

[Leviathan101]

Full Tilt Poker
$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
UTG: $79.05
MP: $65.85
CO: $48.50
BTN: $79.05
Hero (SB): $51.95
BB: $20.25

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.75, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO folds, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $4.50</font>, MP folds, Hero calls $2.50

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($9.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif [T/images/graemlins/heart.gif] ($9.5, 2 players)
Hero ...

Villian is unknown, which makes it harder, but what checks behind flop besides whiffed AK, AQ? Am I good here? Best line to take is...

[jonyy6788]

$3.50 to protect against overs is my standard

[Machavelli]

Pre-flop is very questionable. I recommend limping in this spot.

As played, tough spot. I think I shut down. His range is AA-TT, AK, maybe AQ? You're behind most of the time.

[Ikaika]

could you explain why you like $3.50 to protect against overs?

[Machavelli]

[ QUOTE ]
$3.50 to protect against overs is my standard

[/ QUOTE ]

3.50 into a $9.50 is pretty weak. Any thinking player is going to see the weakness and raise. I think we either need to put out $6 or shut down. I vote for shut down. More so I think at 25nl raising and calling a 3bet pf w/ 33 is -EV.

[Leviathan101]

betting to protect against AK makessome sense to me. 2/3 pot makes the most sense. Does he ever call with AK? I think a 50nl average player might.
Any value to check/calling or check/raising? Maybe snap a bluff from AK? I think we can assume if he calls we are crushed. AK is a pretty big dog to us now, so should snapping a bluff be a bigger concern that them sucking out?

Why limping over raising? Only BB and MP in the pot, and we have no reason to assume BB has any strength. MP limped in. I think I take it down preflop enough to make it worth raising + the fact I gain momentum and build a bigger pot when I flop a set.

Machavelli, you realize he only raised 2.5 more? Had he raised to 6, I fold, but I stack him practically everytime I hit. He has 15 behind in what will be a $10 pot. What's he gonna do fold to a c/r for 6 more with 40 in the pot?

Also... is an average unknown at 50nl a thinking player?

[Machavelli]

The problem is your putting him specifically on AK which is at the weak end of his range. If we assume his range is AA-TT, AK and AQ then your behind 5 out of 7 hands.

I don't raise this PF because it puts us in spots like this. I'd rather limp in and take it from there. With a flop like that I'd probably put out a PSB and fold to any raise and shut down with a caller.

[jonyy6788]

I don't even consider this a 3-bet really. It's weaksauce is all it is. I didn't even see that hero raised 33 OOP. Limp PF is my std.

[Leviathan101]

Why would TT-AA check the flop? Sure his range when he raised is that wide... but now that he checked you still think AA is as likely as AK?

[Machavelli]

Not as likely but I think you'll often see people trying to get tricky. Its also definitely possible he's holding TT and thinks he should slow play his set.

I think you're putting yourself in a marginal situation at best and can find much better spots. JMHO.

[Leviathan101]

He can't slow play a set... He didnt flop one.

[Machavelli]

misread hand OP. Eitherway that doesn't make much of a difference. I think I've made my point, you're definitely behind the range. Seems like you might be a bit result oriented here?

I think you can find better spots to take villains stack. I'd love to see other people weigh in though.

[Brian O'Nolan]

I like a pfr here with just one limper. You pick up his limp + the BB or take it down with a c-bet a good % of the time. Also makes it a lot easier to stack someone when you do hit a set. As played though, with unknown BB you're going to end up playing it mostly for set value which isn't really there with him having $20 behind. I fold to his min 3bet maybe... hmmm that does seem a little nitty... I can see calling and c-betting the flop too, I personally think villain has TT+ too often but YMMV. He could definitely check behind an overpair on the flop there.

[0evg0]

limping here would be hilariously bad.

so would limping here no matter how many other people limped before you.

[Machavelli]

[ QUOTE ]
limping here would be hilariously bad.

so would limping here no matter how many other people limped before you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advocating raising regardless of how many limpers OOP w/ 33? Am I missing something?

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limping here would be hilariously bad.

so would limping here no matter how many other people limped before you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advocating raising regardless of how many limpers OOP w/ 33? Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

[Big Poppa Smurf]

fwiw I think raising here regardless of the limpers is bad, in this hand it's meh

Leviathan,

this is one of those spots where I never take the same line and a lot of it depends on timing and past history and just how I feel about it at the moment.

[Freelancer]

Preflop raise is fine, my regular line is limping but raising is good as well. If you'r at button and CO limps it becomes a brainless raise.

On the turn I am still shutting down, preflop your figuring that his range is mostly big pairs and the flop check really doesn't change that much so c/f again.

I don't necesarrily like, its literally at the edge of the 5/10 'rule'. If you have a specific read that this guy stacks of light than its fine, I find that a lot of villains get annoyed with my constant raising and raise there junk in this spot and play really weird postflop which makes set mining a not so awesome plan (feels like there flipping a coin at each decision point wether to bet/check).

[bustacaps18]

IMO limping here would be a very weak move because of the possibility of stealing the pot PF which is always nice and the possibility of hitting the set. If we were to limp here against two opponents and actually hit the set we wouldn't be in the best position to extract as much as we can from our opponents. Calling the 3bet is also fine because of the set possibility.

To be honest I haven't played much 50 NL short handed so take my opinion with little weight but it seems to me that that check on the flop shows that BB is actually scared of our hand since this flop are low cards I believe our opponent is worried of a small PP or a medium PP. I would bet then fold to a raise. If opponent flat calls, I'd probably shut down, since the only hand I could see the opponent folding on the river is a busted flush draw.

[Pirelli]

Bet $7, fold to any raise and check/fold any river.

[Freelancer]

Some reasons why I limp;
1) Your always OOP, this is a BIG downside
2) If you limp you have direct odds to hit your set
3) Your usually in trouble if anybody decides to call preflop.

Reasons to raise;
1) You believe that its very likely to take it down preflop because villain has a tendency to limp/fold.
2) You think that there's a high chance villain will play fit or fold with better small PP's (big+).


Basically I need a decent read to raise here and my default is to limp.

Did I miss anything?

[RunDownHouse]

You know what's really sweet? Making statements like, "You should raise 22 from the SB against a whole table full of limps," and then responding to skepticism with one-word answers.

The only thing easier than poker is posting about poker!

[Zagga]

I am with the limp small pp's from the SB if there is at least 1 raiser camp here. You will never have a good hand if you don't hit (usually) and will always be OOP.

As for this hand. I would pump $7, if he pushes for his last $8 more I might even call.

[prodonkey]

I don't have any problem raising pp's from utg-button.. but after a bunch of limpers I'm not raising them from the blinds unless it's something like 7's+ The odds you take the pot down preflop are not all that great.. one limper like in this hand.. I don't think it's really going to matter much long term whether you raise or not. I just feel that if there's say 3 limpers and you pop it to 3.50 from the blinds.. and end up with 2 callers and don't hit your set.. do you c-bet?

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
Some reasons why I limp;
1) Your always OOP, this is a BIG downside
2) If you limp you have direct odds to hit your set
3) Your usually in trouble if anybody decides to call preflop.

Reasons to raise;
1) You believe that its very likely to take it down preflop because villain has a tendency to limp/fold.
2) You think that there's a high chance villain will play fit or fold with better small PP's (big+).


Basically I need a decent read to raise here and my default is to limp.

Did I miss anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, building the pot to get full stacks in when you hit a set.

dont worry though, that's only 99% of the reason why this is a raise preflop

and being OOP is bad when you have a hand that isnt retardedly simple to play postflop.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some reasons why I limp;
1) Your always OOP, this is a BIG downside
2) If you limp you have direct odds to hit your set
3) Your usually in trouble if anybody decides to call preflop.

Reasons to raise;
1) You believe that its very likely to take it down preflop because villain has a tendency to limp/fold.
2) You think that there's a high chance villain will play fit or fold with better small PP's (big+).


Basically I need a decent read to raise here and my default is to limp.

Did I miss anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, building the pot to get full stacks in when you hit a set.

dont worry though, that's only 99% of the reason why this is a raise preflop

and being OOP is bad when you have a hand that isnt retardedly simple to play postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm in the "raise any pp ay position" camp.

However with a table full of limpers sometimes I limp as well - sometimes I minraise to build a nice pot - it depends how big the pot is when the action gets to me.

If you raise 4BB preflop and get one caller the pot is 8BB on the flop - if you're in the SB and 3 people limped in the pot is 5BB anyway and you got implied odds coming out of your ears. If the tables passive you can often minraise get 4 callers and build a 10BB pot which is very tasty with any pp. With no reads and a table full of limpers tho my default is to overlimp.

Being OOP is bad for any hand - yes pp's are simple to play postflop - either you flop a set or you c/f (depends how many players there are post) but it's VERY difficult to get good value from a good hand when you are OOP cos when you bet you giveaway the fact that you have a hand.

if you raise preflop into limpers and get 2 callers and whiff the flop my default is to c/f with teeny pairs - or sometimes cbet if the board isn't broadway and I think the villains will fold often if they've missed. I need reads to CB basically - and more often than not when the flop is multiway and I have bottom pair or worse I just c/f.

[Genz]

Big pairs can check behind on this flop for pot control and inducing bluffs. And they might try to get tricky. Because other than the flushdraw, this board is pretty dry. I might stab here. But I'm completely done with the hand if villain doesn't fold.

About preflop: the raise is ok. It's certainly not a must since many people get married to their pps on boards like this because they put their calling opponents on whiffed overs all the time. If you don't feel stupid to c/f your hand if you don't hit your set or if your cbet is called, it is certainly ok.
I don't like the call of his reraise though. You are 8:1 to hit your set. You get about 3:1 direct odds. So you have to take $12.50 off of him everytime you hit your set. That's a pretty narrow margin if he has $15 left behind and is unknown.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some reasons why I limp;
1) Your always OOP, this is a BIG downside
2) If you limp you have direct odds to hit your set
3) Your usually in trouble if anybody decides to call preflop.

Reasons to raise;
1) You believe that its very likely to take it down preflop because villain has a tendency to limp/fold.
2) You think that there's a high chance villain will play fit or fold with better small PP's (big+).


Basically I need a decent read to raise here and my default is to limp.

Did I miss anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, building the pot to get full stacks in when you hit a set.

dont worry though, that's only 99% of the reason why this is a raise preflop

and being OOP is bad when you have a hand that isnt retardedly simple to play postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh somehow I forgot that part, I'll edit it in.

Do you really think building a pot is a such a big plus?? I'd say that being OOP the entire hand when your almost certain you'd get called in atleast one spot is a much bigger disadvantage. Also being OOP with a simple hand to play doesn't mean that it negates the disadvantages of playing OOP (ie. cbetting becomes less profitable, harder to extract, villains have a bigger tendency to play back -I swear people love to call me IP even donkeys-)...

I often raise any PP from UTG-btn and I have a big tendency to raise whenever I play (23/20 stats or so) but completing with small PP's is something I recently changed. I just don't think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, I usually already have a image that I'm crazy agressive (meh) so if I raise from the blinds I always get atleast 1 caller who's not exactly a nice 'fit or fold' type of player. So it might be my image that makes this a bad idea to do because playing OOP against a villain thats after your blood with a marginal hand (most of the time) is a bad idea.

Now if you usually have a very nitty image I can see raising to take it down, but pot building should be a minor consideration not a major on IMO.



Edit; This doesn't mean I HATE raising, I just prefer completing.
Meh can't edit my last post anymore, so just imagine 'pot building' is included.

[rocco1999]

[ QUOTE ]
Not as likely but I think you'll often see people trying to get tricky. Its also definitely possible he's holding TT and thinks he should slow play his set.

I think you're putting yourself in a marginal situation at best and can find much better spots. JMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[Zaid_Ahmed]

Completing in the SB is absolutely fine and raising the correct opponents is absolutely fine. But if this is a raising spot then please raise to $3. Folding is not OK here.

[Genz]

I thought about betting the turn a little more:
If you call his preflop reraise because you assume that you can stack him EVERY TIME you flop a set, that implies that you assume that villain will have a hand that he won't be able to get away from. If you didn't assume that, you couldn't call for set value here. So betting on the turn is bad, because it contradicts your basic assumption that villain will have a hand that he can't let go. So you could see the turn bet as a value bet against AK. But is his range that tight? Certainly not. So either you shouldn't bet that turn or you should be a little more honest about the reason you called. I think, it's kind of a big assumption that you can stack villain every time when you don't even know him. So that call is probably more a mixture of "ZOMG WTF that donkey shortstack minreraised me!!!!11! I call!" and rationalization afterwards. Because I think you are quite right that your fold equity against a short stack that reraises you preflop is pretty slim when you don't hit your set. This is not an accusation. But you need to be honest to yourself to improve your game. I actually think you should fold to his reraise preflop because villain is too short (I know that everyone will hate me for it. Then again I read the microbrew and don't really care... Edit: /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

[jonyy6788]

Raising 33 from OOP makes me want to hang myself....you will get a caller a majority of the time. They will either have overcards or float your c-bet with a PP higher than yours (aka you have zero showdown value).

The value obtained from playing a limped pot with a set is greater than the value of trying to "steal" OOP in my experience.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about betting the turn a little more:
If you call his preflop reraise because you assume that you can stack him EVERY TIME you flop a set, that implies that you assume that villain will have a hand that he won't be able to get away from. If you didn't assume that, you couldn't call for set value here. So betting on the turn is bad, because it contradicts your basic assumption that villain will have a hand that he can't let go. So you could see the turn bet as a value bet against AK. But is his range that tight? Certainly not. So either you shouldn't bet that turn or you should be a little more honest about the reason you called. I think, it's kind of a big assumption that you can stack villain every time when you don't even know him. So that call is probably more a mixture of "ZOMG WTF that donkey shortstack minreraised me!!!!11! I call!" and rationalization afterwards. Because I think you are quite right that your fold equity against a short stack that reraises you preflop is pretty slim when you don't hit your set. This is not an accusation. But you need to be honest to yourself to improve your game. I actually think you should fold to his reraise preflop because villain is too short (I know that everyone will hate me for it. Then again I read the microbrew and don't really care... Edit: /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT first part /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Preflop call is close but doable although if your betting the turn you might be better of just folding preflop.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
limping here would be hilariously bad.

so would limping here no matter how many other people limped before you.

[/ QUOTE ]
overlimping is fine, depending on the type of players you are playing against. if your vs. some super stations, raising pf, c-betting, then shutting down (with no set) is often spewy.

i would probably raise with one limper, but 2 limpers, i consider overlimping.

[orange]

I also bet $7 on the turn/shutting down if called. I think you'll take it down enough.

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
If we assume his range is AA-TT, AK and AQ then your behind 30 out of 46 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP - behind ~65% of villian's range, 5 to 7 makes you behind ~70%...

[Leviathan101]

I realized that the call was razor thin preflop and possibly -EV. However, I was not just calling for set value. It's partly image, and the fact I think there is a possibility he has trash, and I can just take it away. I think the call is very very close.

However, I think I might've screwed this up.

I c/ced 7 on the turn and we both checked a 4s on the river.

Bad line?

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Lev,

If I'm checking the turn I'm just going to go ahead and fold there.

[jonyy6788]

holy [censored] I didn't even see stack sizes....fold PF