How's your SSNLHE?: T9s

[ajmargarine]

I'll try another one here. Questions are numbered in case they come up in random order again. Just do them in order 1-6.

.50/$1 6-max Both Hero and Villian (BB) have $100 stacks.

Reads: Villians first hand at the table, but you have played with him before. He is a respected 2+2'er who knows his way around a poker table.

Preflop: Hero is Button with T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, Action is on Hero.

[ajmargarine]

ANSWER RATINGS:












Thanks for playing. Comments welcome. Ratings are in parenthesis before each answer. Answers are rated on a scale of 0-10. With 0 being fishtastic, 10 being amoeba-like awesomeness.
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Question # 1 --

(3) Fold- It's an OK hand, plus you got the button, play it.
(0) Call $1- Use your position, raise it up.
(3) Raise to $2- Sigh.
(8) Raise to $4- Best.
------------

Question # 2 --

(3) Check- Probably your only shot to take the pot down, fire at it.
(6) Bet $4- Meh.
(9) Bet $6- Some like 2/3 to 3/4 pot here...
(9) Bet $8- Some like full pot.
-----------

Question # 3 --

(3) Fold- True, you don't have pot odds, but....
(8) Call- Pot odds not too bad, and you should be able to get paid OK if you hit.
(5) Raise- This might have merit. Would like to hear discussion.
-----------

Question # 4 --

(7) Fold- Best
(3) Call- Likely burning money.
------------

Question # 5 --

(0) VB- nope
(0) IB- Huh?
(10) CB- Yup
(0) SB- no sirree
--------------

Question #6 --

(10) 3--Only the 3 non-heart 8's give you the stone-cold nuts.
(0) 12,10,9- nope, nope and nope.

Hand results: Hero folded and BB was nice enough to show A6s for two pair and he scooped the pot.

[kitaristi0]

Full points, yay. Now if only I had the bankroll for the big game...

[4_2_it]

Question 2: Against a solid player I like the half-pot bet because it begs a call which only happens if villain has an ace. If villain doesn't have you beat, then he is folding anyway and this bet screams ace to him. Why build a large pot against a solid player when the flop totally misses you?

I admit I usually go 3/4 pot against most players, but if someone looks like they have a clue, I think going half-pot makes sense. Please tell me if I am leaving $$$$ on the table by doing this.

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
Question 2: Against a solid player I like the half-pot bet because it begs a call which only happens if villain has an ace. If villain doesn't have you beat, then he is folding anyway and this bet screams ace to him. Why build a large pot against a solid player when the flop totally misses you?

I admit I usually go 3/4 pot against most players, but if someone looks like they have a clue, I think going half-pot makes sense. Please tell me if I am leaving $$$$ on the table by doing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most solid players would see a 1/2 pot CB as just what it is, a CB. If you have AK, are you 1/2 potting this flop? 1/2 pot looks week and induces a raise. Actually, many people bet 1/2 pot when they flop a monster for this exact reason.

Now, if you substitute solid player for weak-tight player, then 1/2 pot will probably do the job.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
Question 2: Against a solid player I like the half-pot bet because it begs a call which only happens if villain has an ace. If villain doesn't have you beat, then he is folding anyway and this bet screams ace to him. Why build a large pot against a solid player when the flop totally misses you?

I admit I usually go 3/4 pot against most players, but if someone looks like they have a clue, I think going half-pot makes sense. Please tell me if I am leaving $$$$ on the table by doing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want your flop bet to scream ace to villian. You should be betting here what you'd bet with AK. Continuation bets should be made in amounts consistent with what you'd bet if you had TPTK or an overpair. You won't be leaving money on the table in this specific hand, but you will in future hands if you bet inconsistently between TPTK and a continuation bet. Good players will pick up that tell, make a note, and know when you bet 1/2 pot it's a continuation bet and blow you off the hand. Additionally, if you're only betting half-pot with TPTK on the flop, you're likely leaving money on the table.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question 2: Against a solid player I like the half-pot bet because it begs a call which only happens if villain has an ace. If villain doesn't have you beat, then he is folding anyway and this bet screams ace to him. Why build a large pot against a solid player when the flop totally misses you?

I admit I usually go 3/4 pot against most players, but if someone looks like they have a clue, I think going half-pot makes sense. Please tell me if I am leaving $$$$ on the table by doing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most solid players would see a 1/2 pot CB as just what it is, a CB. If you have AK, are you 1/2 potting this flop? 1/2 pot looks week and induces a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since an ace fell on a ragged flop why not try to extract value and represent a monster? Doesn't the ace on the flop change the texture of the hand and the likelihood that the button hit his card and wants to extract value? What drawing hand can villain reasonably have to warrant a 1/2 pot call?

I agree a 1/2 pot bet is weak if no A,K or Q hits the flop and will surely get raised, but who raises OOP the original raiser here with air? And if they do and OR folds, OR should find plenty of spots to take villain's stack. I am trying to focus on villain being a solid player and not the normal donk. Am I over thinking this one?

[Mackerel]

My first perfect score on only my second quiz...I'm so proud... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[4_2_it]

If I had TPTK on a ragged board (no flush or straight draws), what is wrong with a half pot bet to build up some equity so I can ramp it up on the turn?

In your scenario, this is villain's first hand and he is a solid player. How does he rate me? Using your example, he may know that I always make a 3/4 pot continuation bet here. I agree varying your betting pattern and play is correct, I just think this looks a spot where doing it might give you a better chance to induce a fold if villain exhibits 3rd or, God forbid, 4th level thinking.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
Continuation bets should be made in amounts consistent with what you'd bet if you had TPTK or an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

...which is why I said bet $8. Virtually every flop bet I make is pot-sized.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had TPTK on a ragged board (no flush or straight draws), what is wrong with a half pot bet to build up some equity so I can ramp it up on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing is wrong with that. And as long as you are consistently mixing it up like this, I have no qualms with betting 1/2 pot in the OP hand. Can you do this though while 4-tabling in a game theory kind of way that doesn't exhibit any tells?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Continuation bets should be made in amounts consistent with what you'd bet if you had TPTK or an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

...which is why I said bet $8. Virtually every flop bet I make is pot-sized.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Most of my bets range between 3/4-full pot.

[RicktheRuler]

I would like to hear from all the people that suggested it was a good idea to call the turn bet.

[kongo_totte]

0 players would fold this? SSNL is going LAG!

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hear from all the people that suggested it was a good idea to call the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 13:33 immediate which, at the table, I would probably round to 3:1. We have a 5:1 shot, so in order to be a +EV call, we'll need to extract 26 on the river when we hit. I think we probably can.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
We have a 5:1 shot,

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, 12 outs=3:1 shot.

The turn call is a no-brainer since our hand is well disguised and should have good implied odds, especially in position.

[Grunch]

Right, I forgot about the straight. Was thinking just flush.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hear from all the people that suggested it was a good idea to call the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 13:33 immediate which, at the table, I would probably round to 3:1. We have a 5:1 shot, so in order to be a +EV call, we'll need to extract 26 on the river when we hit. I think we probably can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, you forgot the gutshot grunge. Hero has 12 outs for the river (flush + gutshot). Plus, flush alone is 4.1:1, not 5:1. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Grunch]

Sometimes I have serious brain problems.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

Can you do this though while 4-tabling in a game theory kind of way that doesn't exhibit any tells?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I 4-table, I have a table visible in each corner of my screen (wide screen monitors rule /images/graemlins/grin.gif). Once the fish and donors are busted or leave, then I leave with them. I am rarely at the same table for more than an hour or two. Second, if I peg someone as a 'playa' then I am real careful and slow down my play on that table. Third, I rotate my continuation bets between 1/2, 3/4 and full among all my tables which totally randomizes my play (of course I will break from that rule if the flop is scary or my opponent is an ATM).

I think your advice is solid, I am always looking for ways to adjust my game from ABC-like mode that is readable at the higher levels of play to a more creative, yet fundamentally sound mode that is more deceptive to the better players.

Obviously, I want my modification to be at least EV neutral across the board, but I believe if the modification adds a level of deception then it will be +EV against good players and neutral EV against every one else.

[BobboFitos]

havent peeked at results, but for those who say call river... HUH? no worse hand bets for value, so that means he has to have a bluff. and he's not bluffing.((Anywhere close to that frequency)) big leak imo...

edit: Obviously i see results of poll, i ment posts (when i originally wrote this)

anyone who said call, want to go over thought process?

[BobboFitos]

aj, alot of people dispute bet sizes. when you're able to deduce the best course of action, the difference between a good player and a better player is why they bet what they did.

[ QUOTE ]
Question # 2 --

(3) Check- Probably your only shot to take the pot down, fire at it.
(6) Bet $4- Meh.
(9) Bet $6- Some like 2/3 to 3/4 pot here...
(9) Bet $8- Some like full pot.
-----------

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really agree with the point ratings, but it's always interesting to hear other opinions. Rather then give arbitrary numbers, perhaps give a reasoning to why a full pot is more effective then an all in which is more effective then a min bet. etc.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Continuation bets should be made in amounts consistent with what you'd bet if you had TPTK or an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

...which is why I said bet $8. Virtually every flop bet I make is pot-sized.

[/ QUOTE ]

for NL25 thats fine, but you can play better then that.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont really agree with the point ratings, but it's always interesting to hear other opinions. Rather then give arbitrary numbers, perhaps give a reasoning to why a full pot is more effective then an all in which is more effective then a min bet. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, tell us why you disagree. /images/graemlins/grin.gif The numbers are not arbitrary. 0=bad, 5=average, 10=awesome. You can tell the rankings of answers within a specific question by how it lines up the other answers in the question. In question #2, 3 for calling would indicate the worst choice of the 4 answers, but not completely awful as it has a ranking of 3, as oppposed to 0. 6 for half-pot, better than calling, slightly above average, but not optimal compared to the other two answers which are rated as 9's. Pretty elementary, no. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

IMO, the answer to question #2 is a metagame issue. What do you feel comfortable betting here when you have a set, TPTK, or as a continuation bet. For me, I like all these bet sizes to be the same on the flop. I prefer 3/4 pot and make that the majority of the time in HU situations like this. Some prefer full-pot, and I am not sure that you can argue that one is superior to the other.

My answers are just the starting point, to generate discussion. I am no expert, probably not even qualified to do this, but I enjoy it. And, I usually change my mind (slightly, usually on a rank of a certain answer) in each of these threads as people discuss. So, why do you disagree with these ratings? Fill us/me in. I'm here to learn and grow.

[ajmargarine]

I would like to hear from the hearty souls who said raise the turn. I wonder if there is something there, or if that is a pipe dream. It folds some hands that beat us, sure, but is that a good tradeoff for the times he calls us, and we miss on the river?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
he numbers are not arbitrary. 0=bad, 5=average, 10=awesome. You can tell the rankings of answers within a specific question by how it lines up the other answers in the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean the reasoning was arbitrary. Not that it's wrong. But saying half pot is "meh" or whatnot isnt proof to me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I am no expert, probably not even qualified to do this,

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you do a very good job, each of these has been fun

[ QUOTE ]
So, why do you disagree with these ratings?

[/ QUOTE ]

someone who backed down a little wrote somethingpretty good earlier in the thread defending a smaller bet, i dont think id have too "much" more to add, so just look at that i suppose. his logic is solid

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hear from the hearty souls who said raise the turn. I wonder if there is something there, or if that is a pipe dream. It folds some hands that beat us, sure, but is that a good tradeoff for the times he calls us, and we miss on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the turn is great if you can intreperate his stop & go as a marginal top pair. Because standard procedure of top pair would be defending the blind with an ace, for example, (we'll say it's suited to alleviate pf discussion) check / call c bet on drawless flop and lead out turn to defend against possible draws that pick up / get value / prevent opponent from controlling the hand etc.

Alot of times these bets yield great info as well; like a flat-call could be a weaker ace (if you have an avg one) or a draw that picks up, so a river bet for value (blocker) could be in order or a check call. a fold and he didn't have any pair or draw anyway. a raise and unless vs a maniac you're probably [censored].

Now, what htis comes back to is someone being able to hand read what hero is saying by raising the turn; the semibluff is great when successful, but at smaller stakes not enough people will read the hand and situation correctly. (Some may even read correctly but say, "[censored] THIS! I have top pair!")

So sure, raising has its merits, but with both draws being pretty good and almost podds, plus the fact if we raise an odd amount and pot stuck ourselves vs something like2per which pushes, calling is generally better then raising.

[wtfsvi]

I'm one of those. You see a lot of turn leads from decent players with marginal hands, intending to fold to a raise. We have a solid draw, and we're representing a very strong hand by taising the turn. I didn't take into concideration that he know's I'm 2+2 though, that probably changes it to a call. Especially with my image on here /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[theblitz]

47/50.

Now, if only I could be as good when I actually play. Maybe then I will start to make some real money.

[4_2_it]

I really like this example, because I think there are several 'correct' ways to play this one.

Since we have position against a strong villain, I think a case can be made to check the flop and bet/raise any turn. Unless we are up against AA (unlikely given the action), then our play will scream monster to a 2+2'er.

I recognize we are giving villain a free card, but if he has an ace, he is not going anywhere on the flop and with a strong turn play we should be able to get a fold a weak ace. This way you only have to fire one bullet and you likely increase the likelihood of a successful steal.

Flame away........

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I recognize we are giving villain a free card, but if he has an ace....

[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesn't have an ace, he's hard-pressed to call the continuation bet. If he has an ace and we check behind the flop, he's leading into us on the turn, and we don't have a chance to fire our bullet there anyway.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I recognize we are giving villain a free card, but if he has an ace....

[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesn't have an ace, he's hard-pressed to call the continuation bet. If he has an ace and we check behind the flop, he's leading into us on the turn, and we don't have a chance to fire our bullet there anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post stated that we would check the flop only if we intended to bet/raise any turn card. In your scenario if the villain bets out with his ace, we will raise (say 3/4 pot), it screams AA or made hand to him. Villain is smart enough to know that most donks with AA will check a flop with an ace in it for fear of taking it down too quickly. Also, if we hit miracle cards I think we have a much better chance to stack this type of villain because our hand will be well disguised.

I'm just trying to see if anyone thinks 3rd and 4th level thinking will work in this situation; especially since we have a solid villain who is probably capable of at least 3rd level thinking. This is a theoretical discussion on what is admittedly, a non-standard play.

Anyone want to humor me?

[FishSticks]

I would tend to agree with you on this one. Solid opponents seem much more willing to try to pick off continuation bets, and play poker deep into a hand. I like the "delayed" continuation bet on the turn, and I feel like I get solid value out of raising that turn card. Alot of folks will lead right out on the turn given my checking the ace (likely putting me on a scared mid pair or some suited connector type hand), but fold when I raise up the turn which does indeed scream monster.

Against a fish, this obviously isnt a great idea - but then again I have fish call down any PP or 2nd or 3rd pair on the board, even on an ace high flop, against my continuations at times.

[Sweir]

Nice poll again, at first I was thinking that calling his river bet was the best play but then thought it over and realised that he will generally have the Ace or better.

[Praetor]

These quizzes are a good idea

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice poll again, at first I was thinking that calling his river bet was the best play but then thought it over and realised that he will generally have the Ace or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol sweet bump. Although these threads are awesome...

[Inf1n1tY]

Question 2:

I would make a 1/2 pot size for the following reason:
- The Board is uncoordinated
- The Board contains an ace
---> A psb would most likely have the same effect as a 1/2 sized bet imo, so why not risk less money if he happens to have TP or better?