JJ played like a pussy....

[HoldEmNewby]

Villain in this hand is 36/18 over 33 hands. Comments, flaming and line suggestions are welcome as always.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($47.95)
BB ($83.10)
Hero ($113.90)
Button ($55.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $6.5</font>, Hero calls $5.

Flop: ($14.25) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $7</font>, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($28.25) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Greg_Oden bets [$17]....hero?

[MrMysterious]

fold, he has TT obv

[RickA]

An opponent with these #'s I usually call him down only to be shown QQ-AA. My experiences differ from most in this forum, in that I think a 3 bet pre-flop is usually QQ+, AK.

Unless you have seen him out of line on his 3 bets I wouldn't pu any more $ into this pot. You are pretty deep to be pushing a low overpair, no?

[HoldEmNewby]

Pushing is awful. Calling down doesn't sound so great as it feels like i'm just being taken to value town. I haven't seen villain 3bet yet. Am I too weak if I fold here?

[prodonkey]

I'd fold

[svidrigailov]

I would fold. If villain 3-bets infrequently his range is QQ+, AK as Rick said and shrinks to QQ-AA given turn bet (without reads that suggest he will 2 barrel). River bet is also likely to be big if he is committed to his line and you prob won't be ahead often enough to call.

[jonyy6788]

you played it perfect

[matrix]

fold turn = teh standard.

classic reverse implied odds situation we are slightly ahead or waaaaaaaaaaay behind - and finding out which of those two it is is going to cost us a stack.

[PSW]

[ QUOTE ]
fold turn = teh standard.

classic reverse implied odds situation we are slightly ahead or waaaaaaaaaaay behind - and finding out which of those two it is is going to cost us a stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the time we are at the turn, aren't we way ahead or way behind? What are we slightly ahead of? I'm really asking.

psw

[kaz2107]

i think wut matrix means is we r more often behind then ahead here as it looks like we r against a bigger pp here more often then not and we dont have ne good draws to improve on tha river.

fold looks pretty standard to me too

[Gelford]

My only comment is, that I would most likely have fourbet this baby ... especially against someone with those stats


... and most likely gone broke ... I've been slightly tilted the last couple of days

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
My only comment is, that I would most likely have fourbet this baby ... especially against someone with those stats


... and most likely gone broke ... I've been slightly tilted the last couple of days

[/ QUOTE ]

Even 36/18 players don't 3-bet much at microstakes, especially not out of the BB against an UTG raiser. This is almost always QQ/KK/AA once he bets the turn.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

Even 36/18 players don't 3-bet much at microstakes, especially not out of the BB against an UTG raiser. This is almost always QQ/KK/AA once he bets the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, but you need some read .... I see plenty of 3betting with AK, AQ, AJ and also TT. Still it is a question of read and feel

We need some history as to whether villian has 3bet before ... and well ... fourbets do get folds even at uNL .... just be carefull outthere, spewing is always just around the corner.

But as you all now, Ive lost the balance in my game and am just your old regular tard.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even 36/18 players don't 3-bet much at microstakes, especially not out of the BB against an UTG raiser. This is almost always QQ/KK/AA once he bets the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, but you need some read .... I see plenty of 3betting with AK, AQ, AJ and also TT. Still it is a question of read and feel

We need some history as to whether villian has 3bet before ... and well ... fourbets do get folds even at uNL .... just be carefull outthere, spewing is always just around the corner.

But as you all now, Ive lost the balance in my game and am just your old regular tard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's just say you're right and players are fairly frequently 3-betting UTG raises from the BB with AJ, AQ, etc. Even if that's true those players are almost never firing off big bets on the turn with those hands unimproved, especially after the relative strength shown by the OP. If they're still firing on the turn it's because they have QQ+ a huge majority of the time. That's why we call the flop bet and fold the turn. I know you're advocating a different preflop line, but do you agree given the way OP played it that the turn is a fold?

[Gelford]

Sure ... (as you say, I am not commenting turn line)


My line would have lead to all the money being in the middle on the flop ... not sure if that is healthy though ... Holla !

[Panic__NL]

fold the turn, he 3bets preflop, which I agree with most posters is in this case most likely QQ+, so you are beating little. Second barreling in a pot that was 3bet pre flop seems strange so I would have folded this.

[FuriousD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even 36/18 players don't 3-bet much at microstakes, especially not out of the BB against an UTG raiser. This is almost always QQ/KK/AA once he bets the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, but you need some read .... I see plenty of 3betting with AK, AQ, AJ and also TT. Still it is a question of read and feel

We need some history as to whether villian has 3bet before ... and well ... fourbets do get folds even at uNL .... just be carefull outthere, spewing is always just around the corner.

But as you all now, Ive lost the balance in my game and am just your old regular tard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's just say you're right and players are fairly frequently 3-betting UTG raises from the BB with AJ, AQ, etc. Even if that's true those players are almost never firing off big bets on the turn with those hands unimproved, especially after the relative strength shown by the OP. If they're still firing on the turn it's because they have QQ+ a huge majority of the time. That's why we call the flop bet and fold the turn. I know you're advocating a different preflop line, but do you agree given the way OP played it that the turn is a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something here? The BB technically 3bet an utg raiser but shouldn't we be thinking of this as if the BB 3bet someone who open-raised from the cut-off seat? 33 hands is a small sample. Are there really that many villains who will only 3bet AA-QQ, AK? I think there are more who will basically never reraise AA and KK because they think you are probably stealing and want to get paid off.

I can't see myself folding the turn.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold turn = teh standard.

classic reverse implied odds situation we are slightly ahead or waaaaaaaaaaay behind - and finding out which of those two it is is going to cost us a stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the time we are at the turn, aren't we way ahead or way behind? What are we slightly ahead of? I'm really asking.



[/ QUOTE ]

you might be right /images/graemlins/smile.gif

tho WA/WB is still the same as slightly ahead - slightly behind - insomuch as we have to put in lots of chips to see a SD - to effectively take down a 30BB (medium sized) pot.

These spots suck - but folding the turn is the correct play imo.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even 36/18 players don't 3-bet much at microstakes, especially not out of the BB against an UTG raiser. This is almost always QQ/KK/AA once he bets the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, but you need some read .... I see plenty of 3betting with AK, AQ, AJ and also TT. Still it is a question of read and feel

We need some history as to whether villian has 3bet before ... and well ... fourbets do get folds even at uNL .... just be carefull outthere, spewing is always just around the corner.

But as you all now, Ive lost the balance in my game and am just your old regular tard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's just say you're right and players are fairly frequently 3-betting UTG raises from the BB with AJ, AQ, etc. Even if that's true those players are almost never firing off big bets on the turn with those hands unimproved, especially after the relative strength shown by the OP. If they're still firing on the turn it's because they have QQ+ a huge majority of the time. That's why we call the flop bet and fold the turn. I know you're advocating a different preflop line, but do you agree given the way OP played it that the turn is a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something here? The BB technically 3bet an utg raiser but shouldn't we be thinking of this as if the BB 3bet someone who open-raised from the cut-off seat? 33 hands is a small sample. Are there really that many villains who will only 3bet AA-QQ, AK? I think there are more who will basically never reraise AA and KK because they think you are probably stealing and want to get paid off.

I can't see myself folding the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. I didn't notice it was 4 handed so you may be right about this. Makes it a somewhat tougher decision, though I still don't think he's firing the 2nd barrel with AK very often.

It's not that villains won't 3-bet anything other than QQ+ and AK. It's that most villains aren't firing the turn with the weak end of their 3-betting range. So even if we can't narrow his preflop range very much on that betting round, by the turn we can pretty much rule out AK/AQ/AJ/99.

Anyway that's my opinion. I could be wrong, but I speak from a lot of experience calling people down here and getting shown QQ-AA.