Interesting hand at 100nl (AQo 3bet pot)

[Freelancer]

This is a pretty advanced hand and I'm not even sure myself if I did the right thing.

First off reads;
UTG is a decent player, he knows I 3bet him light and usually he's folding. He isn't really involved in the hand so I'll keep my other reads to myself.
Button is a very good player from what I saw so far, he's tricky and agressive and very much capable of making moves. He was 3betting me a fair amount so far and I folded each time preflop. He's seen me cbet in a 3bet pot and giving up on the turn before. He probably views me as a bit weak/tight because I was forced to fold to agression quite a few times on his tables.

I'll post later on wtf I was thinking during the hand, and to be honest I wasn't 100% sure what to do either. After the hand and thinking it through a bit better I think I did the right thing although its quite marginal.

Ok on to the hand;
Stacks;
110$ effective stacks

Dealt to Freelancer;
A/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG raises to 4$
Hero raises to 13$
Button calls 13$ (!!)
UTG folds

Flop (30$);
2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero bets 20$
Villain calls 20$

Turn (~70$)
6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero checks
Villain shoves for ~65$
Hero ???


Feel free to critizise any part of this hand except preflop, that part is SO standard. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Loc0Loc0]

Pretty easy move to make. You cbet en check turn wich indicates a missed flop.

Close call though, but i probably fold and wait till im in a better spot to stack him when he makes a move.

[Montezuma21]

i'm guessing you called the turn.

I don't really think that's a great idea. i honestly think AK is his most likely holdings unless he decided to get really tricky with JT, or with air.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty easy move to make. You cbet en check turn wich indicates a missed flop.

Close call though, but i probably fold and wait till im in a better spot to stack him when he makes a move.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hands do you think coldcall preflop and bet the turn?

Also if this is marginal +ev I'd take it, no point in waiting for a better spot. This is a multitabling regular he'll rebuy if he loses anyway...

[Jouster777]

Why are we cbetting this flop? Its not a very drawy board so we are WA/WB. I like a C/C flop lead turn line to catch an aggro making a move and to get info.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm guessing you called the turn.

I don't really think that's a great idea. i honestly think AK is his most likely holdings unless he decided to get really tricky with JT, or with air.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's shoving the turn with AK, from his point of view I doubt he expects me to call with AQ/worse K so there's little value in pushing there. He still might show up with AK occasionally but I think he's usually 4betting preflop or checking the turn. During the hand I was mostly worried about AA/KK and not so much AK...

[Montezuma21]

[/ QUOTE ]
What hands do you think coldcall preflop and bet the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

TT-AA, AK and maybe AQ.

out of all of those, i think only hands you beat bet the turn. would you explain your reasoning?

Edit: ok, i see where you're coming from. interesting hand.I might have thought that AK would bet the turn since there are a few draws out: hearts, you might have JT, AJ. your range is so wide he's committed to calling a river AI, and he knows this, so i don't know.

BTW, have you found a student?

[avfletch]

I think I find a fold here. You need to be good around half the time and I really don't think you will be. A decent reg isn't calling a preflop 3bet without a decent holding and he can't think he has decent implied odds for various weaker holdings if you've got a weak tight image.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we cbetting this flop? Its not a very drawy board so we are WA/WB. I like a C/C flop lead turn line to catch an aggro making a move and to get info.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like a c/c flop, lead turn line because at that point I'm usually forced to shove the turn. c/c flop and c/f the turn isnt that great either because I'd be folding the best hand on the turn a lot. So I decided to bet the flop and see what happens.

[avfletch]

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Why are we cbetting this flop? Its not a very drawy board so we are WA/WB. I like a C/C flop lead turn line to catch an aggro making a move and to get info.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like a c/c flop, lead turn line because at that point I'm usually forced to shove the turn. c/c flop and c/f the turn isnt that great either because I'd be folding the best hand on the turn a lot. So I decided to bet the flop and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is the case here or not but it reminds me of a problem I had a while ago and it really helped me when someone pointed it out.

I'd generally evaluate my options leaving betting until last. The conclusion I drew was that other options sucked therefore my only option was to bet. Needless to say this was terrible logic so if anyone finds themselves doing it, stop now /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Freelancer]

Ok reasoning;
His range preflop;
Small-medium PP's/AQ and to a lesser extend QQ+/AK (I think he's 3betting QQ+/AK most of the time), this villain didn't seem scared to play in 3bet pots at all so I extended his range to small-medium PP's at the time.

On the flop I bet out to get value from small PP's and perhaps make the hand a bit easier to play, but mostly value from small PP's.

On the turn I was 95% sure he didn't have AK here, so I was behind a set/AA and ahead of random bluff/small PP's. He's definitley capable of turning a small PP into a bluff, so I called. Note that on the turn AK=AQ pretty much...


So I called and he showed 99 and MHIG...

[Loc0Loc0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty easy move to make. You cbet en check turn wich indicates a missed flop.

Close call though, but i probably fold and wait till im in a better spot to stack him when he makes a move.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hands do you think coldcall preflop and bet the turn?

Also if this is marginal +ev I'd take it, no point in waiting for a better spot. This is a multitabling regular he'll rebuy if he loses anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

With another look it is not very likely you have him beat here. Maybe he does this with Jacks or Tens... but Dont know if it makes it EV+

U might consider to follow the line of C/C here as some one mentioned above.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
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Why are we cbetting this flop? Its not a very drawy board so we are WA/WB. I like a C/C flop lead turn line to catch an aggro making a move and to get info.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like a c/c flop, lead turn line because at that point I'm usually forced to shove the turn. c/c flop and c/f the turn isnt that great either because I'd be folding the best hand on the turn a lot. So I decided to bet the flop and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is the case here or not but it reminds me of a problem I had a while ago and it really helped me when someone pointed it out.

I'd generally evaluate my options leaving betting until last. The conclusion I drew was that other options sucked therefore my only option was to bet. Needless to say this was terrible logic so if anyone finds themselves doing it, stop now /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Well if every option sucks you either did something wrong earlier in the hand or raising/betting is correct (if your going to play the hand). Most of the time if every option seems awkward/weird betting/raising or folding is correct and most people are calling (incorrectly) in those spots...

[Freelancer]

as someone else noted at the table (UTG actually) its either a horrible call or a brilliant call, I'm still not sure which one it is although I am starting to think its not that bad.

Also I think villain misplayed this hand horribly...



Edit; I am filling this thread fast, gonna back of a bit now lol.

[Bobbin]

[ QUOTE ]

Also I think villain misplayed this hand horribly...


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the problem with the turn call. Your read is that this is a very good player yet for you to be ahead here he would have had to misplay this hand pretty badly.

I think its terrible for JJ-99 to call that flop in a reraised pot (I assume as a float?) and thats about the only hands that you beat. I assume he wouldn't cold call with JT preflop as well if he is decent.

[Freelancer]

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Also I think villain misplayed this hand horribly...


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the problem with the turn call. Your read is that this is a very good player yet for you to be ahead here he would have had to misplay this hand pretty badly.

I think its terrible for JJ-99 to call that flop in a reraised pot and thats about the only hands that you beat. I assume he wouldn't cold call with JT preflop as well if he is decent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats probably the biggest flaw in my reasoning, I can't really see a lot of made hands that beat me play like this but at the same time there shouldn't be any hands I beat that play this way either...

[Montezuma21]

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Also I think villain misplayed this hand horribly...


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the problem with the turn call. Your read is that this is a very good player yet for you to be ahead here he would have had to misplay this hand pretty badly.

I think its terrible for JJ-99 to call that flop in a reraised pot and thats about the only hands that you beat. I assume he wouldn't cold call with JT preflop as well if he is decent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats probably the biggest flaw in my reasoning, I can't really see a lot of made hands that beat me play like this but at the same time there shouldn't be any hands I beat that play this way either...

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is almost certain you'd be folding to a 4-bet PF, might he not flat call AA or KK in the hope of snapping off a Cbet? that's what i would do. is this terrible?

[Freelancer]

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Also I think villain misplayed this hand horribly...


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the problem with the turn call. Your read is that this is a very good player yet for you to be ahead here he would have had to misplay this hand pretty badly.

I think its terrible for JJ-99 to call that flop in a reraised pot and thats about the only hands that you beat. I assume he wouldn't cold call with JT preflop as well if he is decent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats probably the biggest flaw in my reasoning, I can't really see a lot of made hands that beat me play like this but at the same time there shouldn't be any hands I beat that play this way either...

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is almost certain you'd be folding to a 4-bet PF, might he not flat call AA or KK in the hope of snapping off a Cbet? that's what i would do. is this terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]
Its not bad at all, but villain has been playing pretty wild preflop (3betting light with some 4bets as well) so I doubt he would coldcall with AA/KK (seemed to agressive for this), and since he knows I 3bet fairly light (I was 3betting him light on the other table and he was calling me light) I'd expect him to 4bet AK for FE...

[prodonkey]

Well I think there's only 3 hands he could have that beat you here.. QQ, 22 and AK.. AK being unlikely since he would probably have 4 bet it preflop.. QQ being very unlikely since that's all the Q's in the deck right there then. 22 possible if he's cold calling 3 bets with small pocket pairs. If you think he's a person to call 3 with KT, KJ then I'd say this is a fold, the looser the player the more I lean towards a fold here. But it is a 3 bet pot so it does narrow his range dramatically. He played this so much like he has JT, or ATh that I think I'd find a call here most times.

[kaz2107]

:grunch:

i fold to turn shove...

i just dont seem him doin this with much we beat except a stone cold bluff and wut hands is he calling with preflop that he would want to turn into a comeplete bluff on the river? u said he is solid thus his cold calling range has to be EXTREMELY SMALL considering an utg raise and a 3 bet (he has to fear a shove from UTG) thus i doubt he is callin this with many weak holdings. preflop i honestly put his range around JJ+ and AQ+.

based on this range u beat next to nothing here. unless he is turning his JJ into a complete bluff but saying that he is good i HIGHELY doubt he is makin this play with JJ. by the looks of the hand and ur read id say he prolly has AA or AK here a ton or tryin to play a set weird enough to get a crying call from u. i just cant see him doin this n e where near enough with sumtin we beat here.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Small-medium PP's/AQ and to a lesser extend QQ+/AK (I think he's 3betting QQ+/AK most of the time), this villain didn't seem scared to play in 3bet pots at all so I extended his range to small-medium PP's at the time.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is an important read and crucial for n e one to correctly help with this hand. altho it kinda contradicts tha read of him being good because i think callin here with 100bb stacks and an utg raiser is plain awfull

givin this read tho it does make it closer to a call. but i still dont like it i dont think. u still have tha read that he is good. and this line just doesnt look like sumtin a "good" player would do with much that we beat. when im playin against known regs who think i often try to play my super good made hands in a fashion like this where u really have no idea wut i am doin thus turning tha hand into a guess game (which is tha way this hand seems) a guessing game. to me it seems like we r totally lost on the turn and really have no idea wut he is doin here. thus i think we need to fold. no sense in guessing for a stack when we have 2ndptk. just doesnt feel like a +EV spot to me at all. more like a spot where u got FPS.

if ur read was that he was a maniac and that he wasnt good then obv a call is debatable but still meh imo. the fact that u say he is good tho really makes me not want to get a 200bb pot with 2nd pair. i really think thats wut this boils down to.