25NL KK faces so much aggression

[chanchuan]

CO is 33/23 over around 100 hands, pretty aggro, seems to bluff a lot. BTN is 21/17, very, very aggressive. No other specific reads (other than I'm playing with BTN on several other tables and he usually has a large stack)

Full Tilt Poker
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
Hero (SB): $31.2
BB: $16.15
UTG: $32.70
MP: $73.70
CO: $29.10
BTN: $23.45

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.35, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $0.85</font>, BTN calls $0.85, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.95</font>, BB folds, CO calls $2.10, BTN calls $2.10

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($9.1, 3 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $7.20</font>, <font color="red">CO raises all in to $26.15</font>, BTN calls all in for $20.50, Hero hopes he's against QQ and JJ (???)

Pf r-raise size OK? I have to bet that flop even against 2 and OOP, right? Now what about the all-ins, is it a set so clearly? I'm far more worried about the BTN call than the CO shove.

[marvin_1935]

i'll make it 4-5 pf as i'm oop. i think you're ahead of CO unless he has AA, but the button reraises pf all the hands you beat. i've heard it said that people don't usually bluff in rr pots or ai situations. it's not a fun fold, but a good one imo.

[creamfillin]

PF with the cold caller after the CO, I would raise to about 8 or 9, this should destroy button's implied odds, and it put's CO at a decision for all his chips.

On the flop ther is nothing you can do really. You must of vomitted when button called but these situations are beyond your control.

[marvin_1935]

8-9? at NL25? a psr is ~4. if you're raising to 8-9 why not just shove?

[creamfillin]

Because raising 4-5 isn't really pricing anyone out. By raising to 8-9 we are saying "either shove or fold". If villain decides to call with TT,JJ,QQ, we can get it in on the flop with the best hand, at the same time we'll get button to chuck his small pair. You might say we are missing value with our kings, but this situation is not unlike the one Harrington decribes in his book, against farha and lester where farha would have hit a set if he didn't price him out. You have the option to control the action at this point in the hand, might as well take advantage of it.

[Thremp]

creamfillin,

Bad logic.

[chanchuan]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you're ahead of CO unless he has AA, but the button reraises pf all the hands you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, I didn't think about it.

So do I really fold this (is it possible at all to smell a set with such accuracy?)

[Mjafish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think you're ahead of CO unless he has AA, but the button reraises pf all the hands you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, I didn't think about it.

So do I really fold this (is it possible at all to smell a set with such accuracy?)

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, its a fold. at worst, button has two pair.

raise to like 4-5 pf.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
creamfillin,

Bad logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to educate us with some better logic?

[Debaser]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, its a fold. at worst, button has two pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

Very unlikely he has two pair on this ragged flop. Problem is there's no real draws so while CO might be pushing something inferior button has a set here almost always. If he's decent he would probably muck QQ/JJ after the big bet and push.

[Loc0Loc0]

CO has Queens or Jacks

BTN has a set of 9s

Would be my first reaction. I would probably lay it down here with not much of a thought.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
CO has something good

BTN has something really good
I would probably lay it down here with not much of a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

[21SuicideKing21]

PF I would raise to 5, you really just hope 1 of them calls, but you get two. For flop bet I think that was good, but after the two all ins I think you are committed to this one. You have 10 invested and to call the all in is 16 more on a very favorable board. You can also argue for a fold here too but I just think you're good here because they can easily have two over pairs to the board.

[takingcontrol]

would it be possible CO was putting you on a cbet with that raggy flop and had very little, while the button probably had TT+ ?
does this reasoning erk too closely to the side of wishful thinking ?

[chanchuan]

Well, according to my read CO didn't have to have a great hand, but I was worried about the BTN shove. One conclusion I have from this discussion is definitely a bigger pf raise. I'm also leaning more towards the fold option, although I'm not sure if it's not a bit result-oriented (I think most ppl guess that I lost...)

[21SuicideKing21]

[ QUOTE ]

yes, its a fold. at worst, button has two pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

what two pair is that, the ol' 9 5'er. You call here to the two all in's because the CO can seriously be doing this with anything and also could be thinking you're bluffing with like AK AQ. The button I think could be danger in this one with a set.

[Mjafish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

yes, its a fold. at worst, button has two pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

what two pair is that, the ol' 9 5'er.

[/ QUOTE ]

ha. when I replied to the hand I miss-read the board as 98x. still doesn't change OPs action.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
PF with the cold caller after the CO, I would raise to about 8 or 9, this should destroy button's implied odds, and it put's CO at a decision for all his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? Raise NINE DOLLARS preflop?? Hero's raise is fine - its maybe a little small, but $9 is wayyy too much. On the flop, well I guess you can call and pray but given the action so far I doubt you are going to like what you see. You are getting pretty nice odds though so I think its almost neutral given your opponents tendencies. I dont hate either option.

[creamfillin]

Why can't we raise to 9?

[mvdgaag]

I like creamfillin's approach preflop. A bigger preflop bet would have won it or made it headsup. You wouldn't have to worry about a set if you'd screwed their implied odds, or it'd have been their bad call preflop.

As played I put CO on an overpair and BTN on a set. Fold

[Phytopath]

9$, ah that is crazy, you guys don't want people to fold here you have KK. If someone has AA that's life and you'll be 4 bet anyway. There is only a little over 2$ in the pot.

I think a 4-4.5 ish raise is ideal here, as is just mashing the pot button (I don't play at sites with these things anymore ;-) )

Yeah anyway you need to fold this flop, you beat one of the players but not both of the players IMO.

[RadiKs]

It seems pretty clear from everyone else's POVs but I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

Even though at the lower limits people are rarely going to think about the fact that ur move appears to be a squeeze, its still a good idea to pop it up to 4 or so (depending on ur image. If youve been splashing around you may be able to get away with more). AA will 4bet you, anything else worth playing will call.

As played, your almost definitely looking at a set with that ragged flop. It sucks, but id muck em.