88 in sb

[Stoneflip]

Full Tilt Poker
$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
5 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
BB: $5.7
UTG: $11.85
CO: $52.35
BTN: $39.75
Hero (SB): $48.15

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($0.75, 5 players)
UTG folds, CO folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.50</font>, Hero calls $1.25, BB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($3.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $3.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $10</font>, BTN calls $6.50

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif [6/images/graemlins/spade.gif] ($23.5, 2 players)

hero?????

[ItalianFX]

You're out of position. I would have to say you need to fold this preflop. Otherwise, fold the flop.

As played, check/fold the turn.

[21SuicideKing21]

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You're out of position. I would have to say you need to fold this preflop.

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Why on earth would you fold this PF?

[ItalianFX]

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You're out of position. I would have to say you need to fold this preflop.

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Why on earth would you fold this PF?

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Because when you miss you have no idea where you stand in the hand when you check and your opponent bets.

I'm relatively new to this cash stuff, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[21SuicideKing21]

You don't fold PP's preflop to just a standard raise. You are OOP, but it doesn't mean you fold to just a standard raise. If it was reraised then you can argue for a fold, but you can't in this spot.

[apple11]

Call and then lead the flop for 2/3 pot

[T-Bone98]

I think u have to call this pf. U might even think about raising. This is a steal from the BTN many times and u will be ahead with 88 very very often. As played I would lead 3/4 to pot on the flop depending on villain.

[prodonkey]

I would lead this flop often.. if he comes over top I pitch it. I may very well have reraised preflop too.

[Stoneflip]

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Call and then lead the flop for 2/3 pot


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, sounds good. What is the strategic benefit for leading the flop instead of check-raising?

[creamfillin]

I think check raising this is bad. You're inflating the pot, and your OOP with only a pair of eights. Bet this flop. I probably check call the turn and river, if it's reasonable.

I usually repop this PF against a positional aggressor. It makes post flop play much easier if he thinks you're representing an overpair and you have a better idea where villain stands.

[Stoneflip]

OK. No need to pot build OOP. Thanks.

[Thremp]

Jesus. Some of the advice is really bad.


Call preflop. Call flop.

[marvin_1935]

we need reads here

folding 88 in the sb to a button raise is a non issue, so stop talking about it. if you want to debate pf, debate reraising vs. calling.

[Mjafish]

call preflop.
call flop.

as played you are in trouble and have no idea where you are.

[Sigurd]

Come on! I wanted to be the first one to say call preflop and check-call flop. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[kbrat]

Could you explain why calling the flop oop is the correct line here please?

[ama0330]

Wow the advice in this thread is really so bad.

Preflop you can either 3bet or call, but don't fold. The reason for calling is because at 50nl our opponents are bad enough to pay us off if we hit a set. If we were playing higher, I would suggest 3betting as the opening range of the average player on the button is very wide so you could well take it down there. We dont "just call" these hands in the blinds at higher limits, because opponents are good enough to get away from an overpair and deny us the 8:1 we need on the call to make it +EV.

So 3bet, or call. I like a call.

Checkraising this flop is possibly the worst line you could have chosen as all you are representing is a draw or a bluff, overinflating the pot OOP and destroying any chance you had of showing the hand down.

Leading this flop is also a horrible idea because you are OOP and have shown no strength at all preflop so lots of hands will float you and you will be lost for the rest of the hand, out of position in a rapidly growing pot. Bad spot. Leading the flop OOP here is basically a bluff because you cant stand a call or a re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Could you explain why calling the flop oop is the correct line here please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not inclined to fold this flop in such a small pot just yet but I do HATE my hand and am ready to fold it without even thinking about it. This is not a good spot and you are not playing for value. BUT... Given that so many players cbet the flop then give up, Id check call here then check fold the turn depending on bet size. You are going to have a lot of trouble keeping the pot small OOP which is no good, so I'd just check fold the turn and get on with it.

If you check the turn and he checks behind you may well get a free or cheap showdown so long as no scare cards hit. But I want to emphasize that folding is certainly fine on the flop and more than fine on the turn, this isnt a hand im interested in protecting.

[Jouster777]

I think the C/C then C/F line is a bit too weak. We really need some better reads on villain to try to quantify this but if he is raising 20% of his hands on the BTN then he has TP or better on this flop only about 25% of the time.

Clearly its an uncomfortable situation but I prefer a C/C flop, lead turn line. That way we can bet a bit less than the C/R without looking weak and we can represent that turn as helping us or that we were sandbagging the flop.

As played, once villain calls the flop C/R I think we are done...though it really sucks if he has the FD.

[Stoneflip]

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BUT... Given that so many players cbet the flop then give up, Id check call here then check fold the turn depending on bet size.

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So if i follow your line and the turn is checked down should i lead the river????

[Stoneflip]

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We really need some better reads on villain to try to quantify this but if he is raising 20% of his hands on the BTN then he has TP or better on this flop only about 25% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I thought I was ahead, and he would drop to the CR. I only saw about 20 hands he played so reads were not developed yet. These are the marginal hands I need to improve on to increase my profit.

[ekabe]

I definitely disagree with the C/R on the flop, there are too many hands that he might be calling with and you still have no idea what his range is. As it stands, you dont have any pot control and you are OOP. I think a C/C the flop is fine as I agree with ama, it is quite likely his cbet will run out of steam and if he continues strongly there is nothing wrong with folding. Without any reads this is difficult. Does he cbet often?

I think he could easily put you on a draw here or 2 overcards. I dont think the strength of your hand justifies the C/R as you will only really improve your hand if an 8 thats not a heart hits.

[AKQJ]

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You're out of position. I would have to say you need to fold this preflop.

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I'm sorry, but I'm not folding 88 in the SB vs a standard raise from the BTN. It is at least a call preflop for me.

[_TKO_]

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BUT... Given that so many players cbet the flop then give up, Id check call here then check fold the turn depending on bet size.

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So if i follow your line and the turn is checked down should i lead the river????

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Think about what kinds of hands would check behind the turn and call a river bet: not many. In this spot, I don't think planning to lead the river has much value. I'd rather c/c the river.

[prodonkey]

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Wow the advice in this thread is really so bad.

Preflop you can either 3bet or call, but don't fold. The reason for calling is because at 50nl our opponents are bad enough to pay us off if we hit a set. If we were playing higher, I would suggest 3betting as the opening range of the average player on the button is very wide so you could well take it down there. We dont "just call" these hands in the blinds at higher limits, because opponents are good enough to get away from an overpair and deny us the 8:1 we need on the call to make it +EV.

So 3bet, or call. I like a call.

Checkraising this flop is possibly the worst line you could have chosen as all you are representing is a draw or a bluff, overinflating the pot OOP and destroying any chance you had of showing the hand down.

Leading this flop is also a horrible idea because you are OOP and have shown no strength at all preflop so lots of hands will float you and you will be lost for the rest of the hand, out of position in a rapidly growing pot. Bad spot. Leading the flop OOP here is basically a bluff because you cant stand a call or a re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Could you explain why calling the flop oop is the correct line here please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not inclined to fold this flop in such a small pot just yet but I do HATE my hand and am ready to fold it without even thinking about it. This is not a good spot and you are not playing for value. BUT... Given that so many players cbet the flop then give up, Id check call here then check fold the turn depending on bet size. You are going to have a lot of trouble keeping the pot small OOP which is no good, so I'd just check fold the turn and get on with it.

If you check the turn and he checks behind you may well get a free or cheap showdown so long as no scare cards hit. But I want to emphasize that folding is certainly fine on the flop and more than fine on the turn, this isnt a hand im interested in protecting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with you.. So you're saying if he's willing to fire 2 barrels you're giving up, without ever having shown any strength.. but you don't like leading out which would be a lot stronger play. If you want to check fold fine.. you called for set value and you didn't hit, no problem, fold. I've seen so many people 3 barrel these boards with KJo that I seriously doubt calling the flop can be +ev. What is check calling representing? Either a medium pair or air, with slight possibility of flush draw. Why wouldn't he fire again on the turn if the flush didn't come in.. not many people are going to slow play a big hand out of position on this flop.

[Stoneflip]

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I definitely disagree with the C/R on the flop, there are too many hands that he might be calling with and you still have no idea what his range is.

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If anything is agreed upon in this thread, it is that the CR is poor.

[Stoneflip]

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Think about what kinds of hands would check behind the turn and call a river bet: not many. In this spot, I don't think planning to lead the river has much value. I'd rather c/c the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great argument not to lead the river. Thanks

[Stoneflip]

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I don't agree with you.. So you're saying if he's willing to fire 2 barrels you're giving up, without ever having shown any strength.. but you don't like leading out which would be a lot stronger play. If you want to check fold fine.. you called for set value and you didn't hit, no problem, fold. I've seen so many people 3 barrel these boards with KJo that I seriously doubt calling the flop can be +ev. What is check calling representing? Either a medium pair or air, with slight possibility of flush draw. Why wouldn't he fire again on the turn if the flush didn't come in.. not many people are going to slow play a big hand out of position on this flop.


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If you lead the flop and he calls what will your turn play be?

[fees]

he doesnt have a 6, he has a draw theres a billion of them out there, bet out, if u get RR then u got donked and u can fold.

[Stoneflip]

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he doesnt have a 6, he has a draw theres a billion of them out there, bet out, if u get RR then u got donked and u can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Thanks. That makes sense.

[prodonkey]

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I don't agree with you.. So you're saying if he's willing to fire 2 barrels you're giving up, without ever having shown any strength.. but you don't like leading out which would be a lot stronger play. If you want to check fold fine.. you called for set value and you didn't hit, no problem, fold. I've seen so many people 3 barrel these boards with KJo that I seriously doubt calling the flop can be +ev. What is check calling representing? Either a medium pair or air, with slight possibility of flush draw. Why wouldn't he fire again on the turn if the flush didn't come in.. not many people are going to slow play a big hand out of position on this flop.


[/ QUOTE ]


If you lead the flop and he calls what will your turn play be?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the turn.. and if I think the guy just has an unimproved AK or what. with the turn in your hand I'd lead again.

[Stoneflip]

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It depends on the turn.. and if I think the guy just has an unimproved AK or what. with the turn in your hand I'd lead again.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice. I need to play more ABC poker and stop being trying to be so tricky.

[Angrymoog]

I don't like leading here. You're building a pot OOP when he calls and you have bad reverse implied odds. You're folding when he raises. Why not check call the flop, then on a favorable turn(flush completes or a brick) you lead the turn.

You get the most money in when you are likely to have the best hand (by calling a cbet) and taking down the pot when he's not strong on the turn, which is still the majority of the time.

[sh58]

i think ama's advice is excellent. i sometimes check raise like this but i also checkraise with TP, draws, sets etc.
basically you are checking so you can get the guy to CB. goal achieved: now you can raise or call. calling here seems superior, then give up if he bets again. as an agressive player myself, i find calling scarier than raising.
if you checkraise and they don't fold, you feel extremely foolish. (do it as part of a balanced strategy however)

another thing: it is hard to do but it is a cash game, not a tournament. you cannot fold PF but given the texture of the flop you cannot be ashamed of dumping 88. its a cash game, there are unlimited situations ahead of you with easier decisions (more +ev). noone will ever know you folded....