NL50 6max QQ

[tboss888]

No reads.
Check turn and river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($8.60)
Hero ($51.80)
UTG ($49.60)
MP ($23)
Button ($40.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, MP folds, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($6.75) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4.5</font>, Button calls $4.50.

Turn: ($15.75) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, Button calls $12.

River: ($39.75) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $21</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $21.1</font>, Hero calls $0.10.

Final Pot: $81.95

[prodonkey]

I'm not liking it. What's he calling u with that you beat? I think I check the turn vs most people

[El Tigre]

I make it more preflop. Somewhere in the 4-5 range. Flop bet is alright. After getting called on the flop, you really should check this turn. The only hands you beat are hands like KQ for a gutshot, or maybe a flushdraw. The gutshot hands are unlikely as you have two of the queens. On the river you should check as well. If he had a draw, the deuce missed him, and he wont call, you are only getting called if you are beat here.

I think you just got married to your hand here, and misplayed it on both the turn and river.

[Gelford]

Yeah ... just check turn and river ... unless he has been floating you ... in that case check river

[rakes.a.beach]

Raise to 4 or 5 preflop.

Bet/Fold flop
Check/fold turn
Check/fold river

Queens are good preflop. Not really good on that flop.

[and12006]

Check it down if you can I'd check fold to futher bets.

[haz31]

Are you bluffing or value betting the turn/river? Do you actually know or are you betting for the sake of it?

If your bluffing do you expect him to fold a Ten or an ace?

If your value betting what do you expect him to call you with on the river that you beat?

[jonyy6788]

Check flop...go from there

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Check flop...go from there

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree

[21SuicideKing21]

Raise to 5 PF. CB FLOP and CHECK TURN and RIVER, what can he seriously be calling you with on the flop and then turn. He's probably got a 10 and just letting you bet for him here. I don't mind the continuation bet on flop, but thats to pick it up on a flop like this where he's only calling you with either an ace or 10.

[Thremp]

PSR preflop or overbet it.


Flop bet is fine.

You can fire one more barrel on occasion but this is suicide. I'd usually check turn/river and call less than .5 pot on river folding to anything else trying to catch a weak busted draw.

[jonyy6788]

Plz tell me why we are betting the flop, thanks.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Plz tell me why we are betting the flop, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with not betting the flop ... I once had a talk with Kaz, and he advocated not cbetting Ace high flops, as you fold all hands that are not ace hand, and so there is more value in not betting flop.

Well against non thinking players this is perhaps true ... but I like to bet my AK's etc then they hit and so I do not mind getting caught in a cbet bluff once in a while.


I am not the best pokerplayer around, so I strive to keep my system as simple as possible without much fancy. I basically just bet.

[21SuicideKing21]

[ QUOTE ]
Plz tell me why we are betting the flop, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't you C-Bet this?? You have nothing to lose, you can pick it up right here, or get called or raise and just shut down.

[jonyy6788]

At these stakes c-betting an A hi flop with QQ and then getting caught isn't really gonna help you get paid off in the future when u have AK. If they have AQ and down, they're gonna call a flop regardless against ur AK.

Betting this flop is just spew. The only good fold u get is from KK.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plz tell me why we are betting the flop, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't you C-Bet this?? You have nothing to lose, you can pick it up right here, or get called or raise and just shut down.

[/ QUOTE ]


this sucks, DUCY

[Xanta]

I am checking this flop all day if we were in position. There was a thread about KK on an Ace Hi board a while ago that was instrumental in teaching me how to think about poker. I think that 42it and dbitel posted in it, but I can't seem to pull it up.

That being said, I'm not sure what I do out of position.
The arguments for checking in position were:
-We have a hand with showdown value
-We never fold an ace on the flop (Who calls preflop with Ax to fold when they hit top pair?)
-We can control the pot size
-We can get value out of lower pairs on later streets

I think that when we're out of position, we can no longer effectively control the pot size (especially in a 3bet pot) and it will be way harder to get value out of JJ or 99 as our range is really narrowed by the fact that we 3bet out of the blinds (unless you had been doing it a ton) I just feel like I'd be stabbing in the dark OOP if we check it.

Jonyy, what's your line here if (when) villain bets? Check/Call flop and Check/Fold a brick on the turn? Donk/fold turn? Call turn fold river?

Just an aside, for those conisdering metagame here and how checking turns our JJ-KK face up, I think that going check/call, c/rai on the turn would be a sick line. Thoughts?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
At these stakes c-betting an A hi flop with QQ and then getting caught isn't really gonna help you get paid off in the future when u have AK. If they have AQ and down, they're gonna call a flop regardless against ur AK.

Betting this flop is just spew. The only good fold u get is from KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well as I said, against non thinking opponents there might be value in not betting, but even without going into a discussion of whether image matters at uNL, my concern primarily this.


I do not intend to play uNL forever !

I believe that humans are creatures of habit. For example I have a tendency to autoraise 67s on the button if folded to me ... and then go Do'h, it is the table with the 50/10 donk in the BB that calls everything preflop.

My point is, that we build up habits ... and I believe, that you should strive for a system that is as simple as possible by default. A solid ground to stand on from which you can adapt.


And finally you use the term at these stakes. 50NL has plenty of fairly decent players.

[Gelford]

Xanta, Jonny


Stop trying to extract from a marginal position ... this is nothing you will never know where you stand and villian can blow you out of the pot at any moment with a large bet. There is nothing here ... move along.


Make a hand, bet it hard ... but herelooking for whatever is just meh IMHO


Cbetting is just as much about protecting your hand as it is about value, no reason to get fancy.


No offence ... just my 2-cents /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Xanta]

Gelford it's good that you're trying to build up a framework for hands, but it's a really dangerous rut to get into. Poker hands have a ton of variables and so the raise, cbet, check/fold if I've got nothing bet if I do might beat uNL but when you do move up or play against better 50NL opponents, it becomes decreasingly less +EV until you're a losing player.

Don't cbet because it's easy. The easiest line, especially with OOP play, is often not the most +EV line and that's what were looking for. Johnny has done some difficult analysis on this specific hand that requires some thought and you've made a lot of sweeping generalizations. He's pretty much dead on when it comes to how his range reacts to your cbet and it's not what we want.

I don't want to come off as an ass here, but this kind of ABC is not what the forum is for and is pretty dangerous to a players development.

[jonyy6788]

I think a much better line is to check.

If he bets flop, you can call one street (oh hey, there's the same amount as our c-bet). On the turn, I'm c/f. Rarely will people fire 2 shells on A high/paired board unless they have it or they're really aggro (in which case we will get their money eventually).

Quite often, you will see villain check the turn. Letting people bluff you is +++++++EV. Turning your own hands into bluffs is ------EV

[Gelford]

I know you do not want to come of like and ass, and neither do I, and fwiw I actually stated why I prefer the cbet besides the generalization.


Look, so you check and villian bets .. you call ... then check again, villian checks behind


What do you do here ?


The thing is, that this is a marginal situation with a vunerable hand OOP ... you are never going to extract a ton since you are OOP and you can get in trouble.

I do not think that there is much EV to be had here, so I prefer to just stab, take it down or get some shania and be done with it.


And this forum is about your groundstrokes ... most uNL'ers have terrible groundstrokes and make basic errors, while engaging in advanced plays. Jonny used the term at these stakes. Well imo at these stakes you should get a good solid foundation on which you can build.

This is a marginal spot ... I really mean that there is nothing to see here


Even at higher stakes this is marginal, I remember a hand between Big Jim and El Diablo at 600NL, where Jim has kings and checks flop ... and ends up folding a medium sized pot on river because the boards simply get too scary and cursing himself for not cbetting. El D had air btw. (Not relevant here but .... )

[Gelford]

Jonny same question as I asked Xanta


Flop goes check bet call
Turn check check

What is your line river ?

[Gelford]

NOTE:

With a read of donkeyness or similar, by all means check, but I am saying that default line here imo is cbet

[Xanta]

When the hand goes down like you described with a brick on the turn and river, a good amount of the time villain is just betting at our perceived weakness on the flop and slowing down when we called. Sometimes he's checking a medium strength ace behind for pot control. This makes it a tough spot between check/calling (He wants to stab again) or check/fold (He tries to get more value out of his AJ or whatever) Most of the time I think he's slowing down with an ace though. Betting is really poor on the river because we never fold a better hand and we get value out of nothing but JJ.

For these reasons I check/call a smallish bet on the river.

[Gelford]

Well if we assume smallish bet, then what we must evaluate is, whether (spelling ??) villians shows an Ace more or less than 50% of the time.

Then there is the matter of a non smallish bet ... If I sense weakness, Im betting close to pot river ... which I can since post has been controlled on turn.

And finally as in the big jim hand, there is the issue of the board not bricking making a call difficult in the end.


So basically the way it appears to me, is that we are entering a difficult situation in order to win a smallish river bet (+cbet) .... you really think it is worth the hassle ???


Further more, there are other scenarios ....


Flop check check ....

Turn check call

River ??? (Bet raise /images/graemlins/wink.gif )


How about ye olde dreaded

Flop check check

Turn bet minraise ?



I think you might have a case in position ... although I might still cbet there, but oop, I can't see it.


KK is a monster pf, but on a acehigh flop it loses a LOT of value, no reason to get married to it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Thremp]

jonyy,

Because I'm cbetting almost every flop I'm not check/folding.

I'm almost never check/folding the flop when I 3bet preflop.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
jonyy,

Because I'm cbetting almost every flop I'm not check/folding.

I'm almost never check/folding the flop when I 3bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

who said anything about folding the flop?

[Everlong]

My first thought when I saw this hand was check-raise flop and shut down to resistance. This is a line I often take (against non-morons) when I 3-bet pre but can't beat top pair...

Thoughts?

[Montezuma21]

[ QUOTE ]
NOTE:

With a read of donkeyness or similar, by all means check, but I am saying that default line here imo is cbet

[/ QUOTE ]

against a donk i would be more likely to bet because he'll put me on AK and will fold most likely. if i check, he'll be tempted to bet flop and maybe double barrel which would put me in a difficult position.

If you're worried about Shania: In most 3bet pots (not this one though), it's easy to get it in on two streets, so i sometimes check AK on an A-high flop and maybe let villain try and push me off KK. i think this is a much more effective way of randomising your play and allows you to exercise pot control when you need it.