Some early morning thoughts on double barreling

[avfletch]

I've seen lots of threads about double barreling recently asking, "is this a good spot?" The only connecting factor for a lot of them was that the OP got to the turn without a hand and was hoping another bet would take it down. I've been in that spot a fair few times (ok rather a lot more than that but let's not count or it'll depress me) and I've come up with a rule of thumb which has saved me a load of money and I hope it will do the same for you.

Swap your cards for AA and ask yourself, "Would I value bet here?". If the answer is yes, then the answer to, "Should I second barrel without a hand?" is almost certainly no. Clearly this is changed by a few factors such as you might value bet for 1/2 pot but figure to take it down with a full PSB but you get the idea.

Start putting *yourself* on a range and figure out what you'd do with various bits of it. If you'd try to extract value from the hand when you have the goods then against unthinking low stakes players you shouldn't be going out on a limb to second barrel them.

Just my 2c for the morning. I'd like to know what you think.

[Genz]

I'm not sure if I understand you 100% so I ask: you say, when the board is so unscary or the opponent such a calling station, that you'd be willing to value-bet with a one-pair hand, you shouldn't value-bet (edit: 2nd barrel, of course)?

That combines two things: don't bluff calling stations. This is rather obvious and common knowledge.

The other thing is a little trickier, imo. It involves 2nd level thinking: "What does my opponent think I have?" (the numeration of levels is a little inconsistent, but w/e). If you think this way, you will often come to the conclusion, that it was a bad idea to cbet the flop in the first place. When you raise preflop and the flop comes 972 rainbow or 2suited, usually no one is going to believe you, unless you know they are weak tight. But especially those 40/15/2.8 players will call here, because they bluff so much themselves that they are full of doubt towards your bets in those spots. So this is good thinking. OTOH of course you need an opponent who actually thinks that far. Many will just look at their cards, see that they didn't hit or that they only have a very marginal hand, look at your bet and fold. So it definitely pays off to look around who folds a lot after the flop.
In general, I would take a slightly different approach. Think about what you are representing. Is there any way that I could have connected with this board that looks believable? For me, these are dry boards with a high card, that make it very hard to call if you haven't hit (unless they are calling-stations.). And boards that are very coordinated and have lots of ways they could have hit me.

For a nice article and a good inspiration to think about your cbets, read this article by Todd Arnold. (http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/16576)

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand you 100% so I ask: you say, when the board is so unscary or the opponent such a calling station, that you'd be willing to value-bet with a one-pair hand, you shouldn't second barrel?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean to say "value bet" there?

[Genz]

oops. no. It should be "second barrel".

[avfletch]

Only half way through that article you linked but it seems to be about cbetting not second barreling.

I'm at work atm so no hand histories available but I'll concoct an example that'll hopefully illustrate my point.

Villain is an average donk. You don't know much about him but he's running 25/10 over 100 hands or so and you've not seen him do much and as with so many villains he's far too passive postflop, especially OOP.

It folds to you on the button and you raise to 4BB holding XY. SB folds and BB calls.

The flop is K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif giving us a moderately drawy board and a villain who is checking to us almost all the time.

Most of us are firing a cbet near 100% of the time when villain checks but what I'm interested in hearing thoughts about is your plan for various turn cards for various holdings you could have, especially 'air' hands like A2 and specifically AA. Obviously assuming villain doesn't lead that is.

[Genz]

This article is about cbetting, yes. Because as I said, a bad 2nd barrel is usually the consequence of a bad cbet. So if you stop making bad cbets, you often don't need to think about throwing good money after bad money.

Now to your examples.
When you hold AA here, it's not about cbetting or 2nd barreling. It's about value betting and pot control. A cbet is basically a (semi)bluff. So if the turn is a rag, I probably bet again to induce mistakes by draws or see a cheap showdown and get more money in the pot.

If I have air, I could see myself 2nd barreling if another club comes or the board pairs the 8 or the 9. If a rag comes, I probably take the free card and see if I hit something or a scare card comes.