50NL Top 2 pair on twoflush board

[Nickerbocker]

Im doing this from memory at work so I dont have a hand converter. I appologize.

So anyways it went like this:

Stacks:
Hero(Button):$120.00
SB: $65.00
BB: $110.00

I raise to 1.75 from the button with Jh8h
SB Calls


Flop:(3.50)
Js8s4d
Sb bets 3
Hero Calls

Turn 6c($9.00)
SB bets 5.50
Hero raises to 11.00
SB Pushes all-in for ~40 more.
Hero folds

Sorry about the crude hand posting. I put him on a set here. Im thinking though I should have raised on the flop and pushed the turn. Later on he said he had pocket kings. Was this a good fold?

[Nickerbocker]

I forgot to mention I dont really have a read on this guy. he's fairly new at the table and hasnt been involved much.

[gumpzilla]

I'm not a big fan of this hand.

On the turn, I think if you're going to raise, you need to do more than minraise. I'd bet something like 20 there, and call a push. Having top two cuts down on the number of sets available to him quite a bit, and so something like an overpair gains a little more credibility. Especially in this spot where he called PF - he likely views his hand as being somewhat disguised.

[Klopzi]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, I think if you're going to raise, you need to do more than minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the min-raise on the turn is good for inducing the all-in.

Also, I prefer to raise the flop. Don't let others think they can push you around after you raise PF. If he's gonna draw it, make him pay for it. And if he's gonna push, do it on the flop.

[Sweir]

Raise the flop donk w/o reads. Don't min-raise turn and then fold to push, just raise a decent amount and call a push or call the turn bet, imo folding top 2 in this situation is too tight.

[polkaface]

I would have raised the flop to 9.

As played, would have called. As gump said, it is hard to put him on a set with your holdings.

[Nickerbocker]

All good advice thank you. 20 on the turn probably would have done it and it would have made it easier for me to call a push.

[Klopzi]

[ QUOTE ]
All good advice thank you. 20 on the turn probably would have done it and it would have made it easier for me to call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

One question to ask yourself: why were you raising the turn? For information or for value? If for value, then your min-raise worked. If for information, I'd agree that a bigger bet works a little better.

However, I can't see folding this hand given the SB's play and the board. Rather than a bigger raise on the turn, you should consider raising the flop instead. If you really want to figure out if you're ahead or behind, do it earlier when the pot isn't so large and the cost of a mistake is smaller.

It's hard to lay down top two pair when being given 2:1 on a drawy board...

[Nickerbocker]

I played that hand way out of character. Not really sure why. Probably because I had just gotton done with a 12 hour shift and i shouldnt have been playing at all. That being said at the time I felt like the laydown was the correct move given the way that I had played it. I just had this sick feeling that he had a set of 4's. Not having any reads and not knowing he had KK is everyone calling this push?

[DawnToDusk]

I think you need to start putting your opponents on a hand range as opposed to putting someone on a specific hand. Maybe you do and you came to the conclusion that he has a set, but if that is the case then I think you need to look at your reasoning a little more then.

His betting could be pretty nondescript and he could actually have a set, but he isn't doing a good job of building up the pot and getting his money in the middle. Ya he does push all in, but it doesn't look like one that can be easily called (cuse he didn't build up the pot). He could also have pocket KK but I think those would reraise PF a lot of the time and if he did have pocket KK then he is almost shutting you out of the pot with a flop bet if you didn't hit. It seems more feasible that he would check-raise with a set or KK on the flop and then lead the turn or get a check-raise in on the turn.

So here is what I am thinking if I am you. My villian has a range of AK, AQ, JJ, TT, 99 on down. AA, KK, QQ too if our villian likes to play his hands slow and try to be trappy. I might put AT+ in there as well as KQ and maybe some other broadways, but I would have to know that my villian is loose and doesn't care for position lots.

When our villian bets the flop I am thinking that AA, KK, QQ, and JJ are now less likely in our villians range. I think those hands would try to trap a player in this hand and build up the pot. I also think AK, AQ are also out of the question. So then what does he have? I would then loosen up my range for the villian and say something like Jx is in his range or a draw.

I would now expand my vills range to KQ, AJ, AT and make some weaker broadways depending on what other information we have on our villian. Also some drawing hands like JTs, T9s, 89s, etc. His betting seems more explainable with that range.

He calls OOP with a marginal hand that obviously doesn't warrant a raise or building a big pot. He hits a decent draw, top pair with an okay kicker, or a combo draw and bets out to try to win the pot there on the flop. On the turn he bets again maybe as a fledging attempt to win one more time. You min-raise and he may interpret this as weakness (since you did just call the flop instead of reraise the flop which would denote a lot more strength). He then pushes in his full amount which offers you terrible odds. It seems more of a bet that doesn't want to be called as opposed to called. So coming down to it I call here. My logic could all be wrong and he could of had a set or he could of had KK. But I get the feeling that he actually doesn't here and you are ahead of his range at the moment (his range be TP or a draw).

Anyone disagree with me? I have been taking a break from playing lately to improve my critical analysis and study other concepts for a while. I want to know if I sound wack or not. Thanks for responding. <3s

[Nickerbocker]

what are some guidelines for putting someone on a range? considering this guy was new to the table, i had no reads and I dont have PT. My reads online are usually pretty good...im right more then im wrong but without PT it usually takes me a couple orbits to get a feel for someones style.

[DawnToDusk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All good advice thank you. 20 on the turn probably would have done it and it would have made it easier for me to call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

One question to ask yourself: why were you raising the turn? For information or for value? If for value, then your min-raise worked. If for information, I'd agree that a bigger bet works a little better.

However, I can't see folding this hand given the SB's play and the board. Rather than a bigger raise on the turn, you should consider raising the flop instead. If you really want to figure out if you're ahead or behind, do it earlier when the pot isn't so large and the cost of a mistake is smaller.

It's hard to lay down top two pair when being given 2:1 on a drawy board...

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a little funny to me in the sense that you say "20 on the turn probably would have done it and it would have made it easier for me to call a push." To be a winning player you have to maximize the amount you win on hands you do win and minimize the amount you lose on the hands you lose. This is how we show a profit. If you truely do believe you are behind here then it doesn't make sense to raise more so you can call a push. This is just creating a big pot that you are likely to lose. If you think you are behind find the most likely route that will minimize your loses whether that means folding or check-calling turn or whatever else you can think of.

I don't think raising for information is a good idea either. There is information that you accumulate that can be used short-term and long-term. The short-term information you accumulate is from the way the hand has played out up to this point and any other hands that recently happened. You come up with ideas such as "After looking at the action up to this point I think my opponent has an okay but not great hand." If you are planning to raise because you think you can push off your opponent off his marginal hand you should then predict how the next bit of information is going to come to you. "If I raise here and get reraised then my opponent either slowplayed a monster hand or is trying to make a move on me with a <blank> type of hand." "If he folds then he did have a marginal hand."

I guess what I am trying to say is "if you raise for information" you ought to be looking for something that helps you long term. Something that will maybe give you a tell on your opponent, tell you how he plays a SPECIFIC type of hand, or allows you to maximize your EV in a situation in a future.

Essentially, you are paying $15 dolloars more for very short-term information that will tell you whether you are ahead or not in this hand. Either way you will find out if you call to the river or use your information you already have to come to conclusion that you are already behind.

[DawnToDusk]

A note about PT is that it can be very misleading in the first few orbits. I remember when I first got it and thought it was a god send. Someone would have a hot run of cards without showing down and I thought "Oh this guy is obviously very loose and aggressive. Ill play my position against him and loosen up a bit in the back and hammer him with bets." Well turns out the guy was a TAG and would then show me the best hand at the showdown. So PT has its limitations and you have to understand them to make use of it. So if you do get PT there is a little note for you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But for me I just treat new players TAGgy until I can prove otherwise. Might take me 10 orbits or just one. I kind of come to the table with the thought that people like their money and they don't like to throw it away. If people prove me otherwise then I adjust accordingly. That doesn't mean you can't take advantage of people who are TAGs for example. If they are in the blinds when you are on the button loosen up and play your position. Don't get wild and crazy and stack off. If you meet resistence you can slow down a lot or just give up.

As for adjusting hand ranges throughout the hand I kind of assume players are straight forward until I can prove otherwise. This doesn't mean they won't do weird things. A lot of the micro players aren't really creative. With that being said a lot of creative things that you see happening at higher limits won't necessarily work at these limits.

So for example when you said you thought he had a set I said, "Okay. His flop bet could be a way for him to build up a pot with a set in his hand. But at the same time I am going to fold this flop unless I get a piece of it. So why didn't he check-raise me or just call and get more of his money in on the turn?" Then the turn comes and I see his bet of $5.50 in a $9 and say "If he did have a set and bet into me on the turn I would of expected him to C/R me on the flop or just smooth call a bet I made on the flop. Plus after looking at this bet, the total pot size, and the money left behind I find it relatively hard for him to make a large bet where he gets all his money in on the river that I could easily call due to pot odds. He would of had to bet more here to do that."

[Nickerbocker]

What I meant by the "20 would have done it" is that I missed a raise on the flop. 9 times out of 10 im raising that flop but for whatever reason i didn't and therefore the best course of action would have been raising the turn...obviously.

I didnt think I was behind until he pushed. But saying that im basically contradicting myself arent I? Because if I didnt think I was behind before the push then I would have no reason to think i was behind after the push. If that makes sense.

[DawnToDusk]

Well now lets wait up a second right here. You can always change your perception of the current situation. Its alright to say "I believe my hand is stronger than my opponents and I believe he has a marginal hand here. I can do <blank> to get my opponent to fold or I can do <blank> to try to extract more money from him." Then you can go on to say "Well I thougth my opponent had a marginal hand and I did <blank> to either get him to fold/extract more money and he pushed in. Now I belive my opponents holding is <blank>." Thats perfectly acceptable. Reading bets and rands helps us make the most on our good hands and lose the least on our marginal hands/losing hands.

But the way your hand played out it looks like you were left guessing. Anytime you have your opponent guessing you are looking good. Sometimes they will guess right and either beat you if you were bluffing or fold to your bet and you won't get paid off. Other times they will guess wrong and you will make money from them. The same goes for you when you have to guess. You could of guessed wrong here.

If you had raised the flop you would of had more information to come to a reasonable conclusion. A different turn raise would of also offered you a different set of information too that would of altered your conclusion.

[Nickerbocker]

Ok that makes a lot of sense.

Given my play though. With the information that I recieved from my bets. Are you saying that this is a call or a fold? In your opinion.

[DawnToDusk]

I'd be calling this hand. There just isn't enough information here that adds up to show that I am really behind. It may turn out he does have a set and he flips it up. It may be that he actually did have KK and flips it up. Thats poker. Make some notes on him after you call him and don't try to be results oriented in the short run.

If I were you (and if you haven't) I would keep a folder with notes on poker and stuff. Write this hand down with the info you gave in the original post and then filter through all your questions that you have. Make them bold points under the hand and then filter through all the information that other people have said and use them to answer your questions. Try to answer your questions so you don't make a cookbook of situations that "If I have this and my opponent does this on this type of board I then do this." Make it so you can look back at your questions and answers so that it gives you information to think about in whatever situations occur in the future.

[Nickerbocker]

I will.

Thank you very much for the help. This is the first hand ive posted here and it's definitely enouraged me to post more.