Antisocial Personality Disorder (for sirio11)

[El Diablo]

Excellent poster and great guy sirio11 (I'll add him to the thread starter list next update) wanted to discuss this here:

[sirio post]
--

I read the following definition in the internets.

How many poker players fit this definition?



Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or
sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the
feeling and welfare of others. As a clinical diagnosis it is usually
limited to those over age 18. It can be diagnosed in younger people
if the they commit isolated antisocial acts and do not show signs of
another mental disorder.

Antisocial Personality Disorder is chronic, beginning in adolescence
and continuing throughout adulthood. There are ten general
symptoms:

not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may
not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit
suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or
rights. They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal
pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child
support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk
sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness,
failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility,
and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of
others are traits of the antisocial personality.

Socioeconomic status, gender, and genetic factors play a role.
Males are more likely to be antisocial than females. Those from
lower socioeconomic groups are more susceptible. A family history
of the disorder puts one at higher risk.

There are many theories about the cause of Antisocial Personality
Disorder including experiencing neglectful parenting as a child, low
levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain, and belief that
antisocial behavior is justified because of difficult circumstances.
Psychotherapy, group therapy, and family therapy are common
treatments. The effects of medical treatment are inconclusive.
Unfortunately, most people with Antisocial Personality Disorder
reject treatment. Therefore, recovery rates are low.

--
[end sirio post]

I think this, and personality disorders in general, are a very interesting topic. And, yes, I agree that there's quite possibly a higher degree of some of this stuff within the poker and online community as compared to the general population.

[TheMainEvent]

In the "what's your personality disorder?" thread the majority of those who responded had test results pointing in this direction.

I doubt very many are true sociopaths though.

[fish2plus2]

"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get introversion from? No one I've met who exhibits these characteristics has been someone I would call an introvert.

[Anacardo]

This is a subject of significant personal interest to me. W/ specific regard to antisocial personality disorder, there is a to me fascinating school of thought which regards the antisocial and histrionic personality disorders as essentially the masculine and feminine manifestations of the same disease:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder

Read these over side by side and it seems to make a great deal of intuitive sense.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am somewhat introverted and very selfish/self-centered. That said, I exhibit none of the symptoms except:

no change in behavior after punishment
self-centeredness

I probably fit your definition of introverted+selfish, but I am definitely not a sociopath. I have a few friends who are the same way.

[xorbie]

I'm not a huge fan of the term "Personality Disorder" because it makes it sound like this is a qualitative personally difference as opposed to essentially just someone different enough in degree (according to at least one psychologist I suppose) to be considered officially different.

[fish2plus2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get introversion from? No one I've met who exhibits these characteristics has been someone I would call an introvert.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im confused. Its anti-social personality disorder, how can someone who is an extrovert suffer from an "anti-social" disorder?

JaBlue,

Well there are obviously different levels to these characteristics, they would have to give examples about what it means to "not care about other people", etc.

I just think "anti-social personality disorder" sounds like a gigantic category and is pyschobable.

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get introversion from? No one I've met who exhibits these characteristics has been someone I would call an introvert.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im confused. Its anti-social personality disorder, how can someone who is an extrovert suffer from an "anti-social" disorder?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think in this context antisocial doesn't mean "not sociable" but rather unable to participate in society in an acceptable way. Think of someone who appears popular and outgoing, has a ton of acquaintances, but can't seem to maintain healthy close friendships and romantic relationships.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with

[/ QUOTE ]
These people used to be known as psychopaths, then sociopaths, and now there is a new PC term. The main trait is that they literally don't care about other people and have no conscience. They have no sympathy or empathy for others and care only about benefiting themselves. For example, some learn to be quite charming and good at picking up women, but ultimately view them only as a vessel for sexual release and have literally no qualms about lying to or (emotionally) hurting them. The disorder can actually be an advantage in the business world, and some estimate the rate at the upper-echelons is much higher than the general population. IIRC, around 2% of males fit the symptoms, so there are a lot more of these people walking around than you realize.

[fish2plus2]

TME,

You have a point, I heard Ted Bundy was charming as hell.

[ChicagoTroy]

I would peg Internet poker players as leaning towards avoidant personality.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

As much as I absolutely despise fishplus I agree completely with this. Also good post by WhoAmI. One thing I am slowly realizing is that no one is going to say "yeah I am antisocial I dont care about other people", these people will speak normal words like everyone else, their actions will show their true colors so there is a little bit of a job to seperate words from actions and see what a person really is.

Most people I've met in poker are nice, but those are the higher stakes players. When I was at 10/25 at foxwoods practically everyone at the table seemed to have some sort of disorder. It seems like it would be hard for an antisocial person to be that good at poker. Empathy and understanding a person is important. Also to play high stakes I think you kind of have to have your [censored] together. Have friends and be happy so your mind works good for poker.

[7ontheline]

"Personality disorder" may sound like a PC term but it's a serious medical diagnosis. There are definite criteria that a person must fit to actually have this. I suppose it is a more palatable term than, say, "sociopath," but it's also more descriptive medically. The problem of course is that psychiatric disorders are not as easy to categorize as other diseases. You either have HIV or you don't (idiots like Tommy Morrison notwithstanding) whereas psych diagnoses are a little more fluid. So while it may sound that way, I don't think it's exactly designed simply to make people feel better about their diagnosis. Actually, people who have PDs are generally unable to see their own behavior as wrong/odd anyway, so it's definitely not for their benefit/self-esteem.

ChicagoTroy is right - if you're talking about painful introversion and an inability to make friends/meet people then you're looking at Avoidant PD. Maybe Schizoid for the really weird ones. Antisocial PD, as WhoIAm described, is not introverted people. Antisocials are con men, criminals, and huge jerks. They don't give a crap about anybody but themselves - obviously plenty of people are selfish/self-centered but these people are amazingly so - the type of people who would step over someone dying in front of them without a thought if they thought nobody would see them. They certainly might act differently in front of people to keep up a better image, but it's fake. Ultimately it's for their own self-interest.

[Brocktoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Im confused. Its anti-social personality disorder, how can someone who is an extrovert suffer from an "anti-social" disorder?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because people misuse the term, psychologically speaking, all the time. They say anti-social but just mean introverted. The clinical definition of anti-social has nothing to do with being introverted, as a quick read of the OP can confirm.

Anti-social people actively do things to hurt others and themselves, they don't keep to themselves the way an introvert does and they aren't shy. Ironically, almost all shy introverts are not anti-social and vice versa.

[imthaifool]

The book Snakes in Suits is about people with this disorder in the business world. What do you call it if you have the exact opposite of this disorder? I think I have that, whatever it is called.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
The disorder can actually be an advantage in the business world, and some estimate the rate at the upper-echelons is much higher than the general population.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think this is equally true with poker, but of course it's just intuition.

[Tom Ames]

[ QUOTE ]
"Personality disorder" may sound like a PC term but it's a serious medical diagnosis. There are definite criteria that a person must fit to actually have this. I suppose it is a more palatable term than, say, "sociopath," but it's also more descriptive medically. The problem of course is that psychiatric disorders are not as easy to categorize as other diseases. You either have HIV or you don't (idiots like Tommy Morrison notwithstanding) whereas psych diagnoses are a little more fluid. So while it may sound that way, I don't think it's exactly designed simply to make people feel better about their diagnosis. Actually, people who have PDs are generally unable to see their own behavior as wrong/odd anyway, so it's definitely not for their benefit/self-esteem.

ChicagoTroy is right - if you're talking about painful introversion and an inability to make friends/meet people then you're looking at Avoidant PD. Maybe Schizoid for the really weird ones. Antisocial PD, as WhoIAm described, is not introverted people. Antisocials are con men, criminals, and huge jerks. They don't give a crap about anybody but themselves - obviously plenty of people are selfish/self-centered but these people are amazingly so - the type of people who would step over someone dying in front of them without a thought if they thought nobody would see them. They certainly might act differently in front of people to keep up a better image, but it's fake. Ultimately it's for their own self-interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. I've seen the term "functional psychopath" used to describe ruthless but successful businessmen or politicians (for example) who display some of the diagnostic criteria for ASPD. Often, mental health professionals will not diagnose ASPD in an individual who displays less severe symptoms, but will instead make the diagnositic impression of "antisocial traits".

[DJ Sensei]

not learning from experience - no
no sense of responsibility - yea, kinda
inability to form meaningful relationships - no, although sometimes i have trouble with girls because i generally dont understand the way their mind works
inability to control impulses - only in a self-related way, not with regards to others
lack of moral sense - no
chronically antisocial behavior - not really, but sometimes non-social perhaps (choosing sometimes to stay in and play poker rather than go to a bar with my roommates)
no change in behavior after punishment - no, although nobody punishes me for anything anymore
emotional immaturity - dont think so
lack of guilt - maybe a little
self-centeredness - to an extent

I would say that i've become more self-centered since I began to play poker seriously, but i'm not sure if there is a cause and effect relationship or if they are both symptoms of something else.

I also was averse to this being called a serious disorder, but i think that that nomenclature is primarily referring to extreme cases. While all people are somewhere along the spectrum in the combination of these issues, the real "sociopaths" are in the 1% percentile while i'm in the 20%, or something like that.

I wish I knew more about psychology, but I feel like much of it is common sense for the logical person who is aware of mental or social issues, and the primary purpose of an education in psychology (or sociology, or related fields) is to give the psychologist a language with which to speak, and thus discuss the issues more effectively and then delve deeper into the possibilities of the psyche with other logical and creative people. (Though that may be a bias coming from someone who engaged in an engineering and mathematics education at a top 10 school where "sociology" was the easy major as opposed to "sports management" or something like you see most college athletes majoring in)

[keikiwai]

fish,

i think extro and intro vert is not a good way of looking at this..... the basic characteristic of these people are that they are not verted at all. They do not consider others... so they're not extroverts.... that doesn't mean they can't talk a lot, or get into fights or whatever, but they do not derive their energy, pleasure, etc. from the company of people.

They are also not introverts in the sense that they are often not really in touch with what the hell's going on inside them. Sure they'll feel rage sometimes, but I would also suspect that a dissociative state is common... in that they are sort of blank, cut off from what's going on outside and also from their internal feeling and its cause.

I don't know this for sure or anything..... but I def. think that this is not a good place to look at extro vs. intro

[NoahSD]

[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would've thought that before reading the list of symptoms. But after reading them, this sounds like a really extreme disorder.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
And I think this is equally true with poker, but of course it's just intuition.

[/ QUOTE ] I think this is true for the old-school hustler-gamblers, but I'm not sure if it applies as much today. It certainly doesn't hurt. Empathizing with your opponent is not a useful trait. We all like to pretend that our opponents are playing with money they can easily afford to lose, but we know this isn't always the case. At some level we have to accept that some of our bankroll is built on the ruined lives of others. If we let this bother us, we won't play well, but most here will be willing to admit there's something f'ed up about where we get our money from.

[mmbt0ne]

fish,

You are making the common mistake of confusing antisocial with asocial. It's ok, everyone gets it wrong at first, just like how 95% of people like schizophrenia is multiple personalities.

[gurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that some people make the giant leap of illogic from "We are classifying this person as having a disorder" to "We are absolving them of responsibility for their actions"? It's a description, not a Get Out of Jail Free Card. Also please note that if you don't even know what the words in the title of the disorder mean, claiming that it "sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with," makes it sound like we need to help correct your ignorance and stupidity rather than simply answer your question.

For what it's worth, I suggest ditching the idea of Antisocial Personality Disorder altogether in favor of Robert Hare's psychopathy construct. I think it gets at what you're trying to analyze better, and the term won't confuse people who haven't taken psychology courses. His book Without Conscience (http://www.amazon.com/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-4642680-3904138?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173451923&sr=8-1) is a pretty good, easy read.

[Fast Food Knight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Antisocial Personality Disorder" sounds like some BS term some shrink came up with, I mean it basicaly sounds like Introverted + Selfish, and calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get introversion from? No one I've met who exhibits these characteristics has been someone I would call an introvert.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im confused. Its anti-social personality disorder, how can someone who is an extrovert suffer from an "anti-social" disorder?

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely see what you mean. I think in this case "antisocial" is better defined as behavior in which social norms and the rights of others is persistently violated. Not so much avoiding people or being introverted, but just having complete disregard for the welfare of other people.

As many serial killers are antisocial personalities, I believe a lot of "car salesman" types fit this as well. Charming, likeable, and completely manipulative or otherwise full of crap.

[Eagles]

Maybe this is just my personal experience but almost every poker player is nothing like this. Obviously there are people in the poker world with these characteristics but I don't think the rate is much higher than in the rest of the population. However maybe I have just been fortunate and associated myself with the right people.

[TonyDanza]

[ QUOTE ]
calling it a disorder seems to imply that its not their fault that they are selfish, which is probably an important precept for a therapist who is charging his patient an hourly fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling it a ______ disorder also probably does not help with the symptom of the patient not accepting responsibility, which was one of the symptoms listed above.

[A_C_Slater]

The term "disorder" should never be used in clinical psychology. It implies that the patient is inferior or even sub-human when contrasted with the psychiatrist.

[BarryLyndon]

So does that mean you have to have a borderline antisocial disorder to be a top-tier professional card player?

[Tom Ames]

[ QUOTE ]
The term "disorder" should never be used in clinical psychology. It implies that the patient is inferior or even sub-human when contrasted with the psychiatrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's so easy even a caveman could do it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MusashiStyle]

I work at a large psychiatric institution (semi-state run). There are some very legitimate diseases of the mind like schizophrenia which truly destroy peoples lives and it is NOT their fault. I think it would be incorrect to say that anti-social personality disorder is a true disease of the mind since these people are more in control of their actions. Though I suppose it could be treatable through talk therapy possibly.

[bkholdem]

true antisocials are the people who are locked up in prison. some people may have traits of the disorder to some degree but antisocials are not just 'antisocial' as in do not socialize, they are antisocail as in killing animals for fun when they are children and doing heinous things in adulthood and thinking it is perfectly fine.

[dylan's alias]

[ QUOTE ]
I work at a large psychiatric institution (semi-state run). There are some very legitimate diseases of the mind like schizophrenia which truly destroy peoples lives and it is NOT their fault. I think it would be incorrect to say that anti-social personality disorder is a true disease of the mind since these people are more in control of their actions. Though I suppose it could be treatable through talk therapy possibly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the things that makes personality disorders so difficult to deal with. People with "legitimate diseases of the mind" are so clearly not normal, and are often helped by treatment (medication and therapy). Personality disorders are closer to the range of normal behavior, and are frequently not treatable by either medication or therapy. They are very frustrating to deal with because there is always the nagging question as to whether they are truly ill, or if they just suck.

Everyone has traits of the various personality disorders, but very few truly qualify for the diagnosis.

As for using the diagnosis being an excuse for bad behavior: people with personality disorders see nothing wrong with their actions and will generally not make excuses.

[Duke]

I think the only part that I fit is the "no change in behavior after punishment," as I don't recognize the authority of anyone to punish me. Though, I suppose certain things could be seen as punishment that I handle by dissociating myself from the "punisher."

[hmkpoker]

I think narcissistic personality disorder would be the most prevalent among poker players.

[tabako]

[ QUOTE ]
So does that mean you have to have a borderline antisocial disorder to be a top-tier professional card player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful here.

There is actually a "borderline personality disorder," which is a completely separate diagnosis. I would go with the word mild instead of borderline.

[JOEL_]

Because its not easy to place pro poker players or serious poker players under normal people catogories simply choosing to fit them under some kind of personality disorder catogories in this forum saddens me somewhat.