The Afghanistan Poppy.

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BBC news this morning has a story on how the opium crop from Afghanistan is expected to be huge this year. This reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend the other day.

He said that all the UN has to do to stop the war in Afghanistan is to legalise their poppy crop for use in the world pharmacutical markets. Once the money starts rolling in the warlords will lose or willingly give up their power. It seems that the UK is trying to head down this path.

Here's a link to a story on the subject;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6287975.stm

The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.

It seems to me to be slightly distasteful that Western powers are hell bent on destroying the Afghan poppy crop when their own countries cultivate poppies for medicinal purposes. And destroying the Afghan farmers crops when they are very poor is only going to push them over towards the Taliban.

Thoughts? Am I totally off base here?

[FluffyTiger]

On a not so slightly related note, RE: Africa Aid, wouldn't it be great if westerners went into an impoverished country, bought up all their crops for a fair price then gave them away for free to the locals?

and yeah interesting topic, it would not surprise me if you are right, America's a bit crazy IMO with their subsidies and import tax of foreign crops

[Innocent Kitty]

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On a not so slightly related note, RE: Africa Aid, wouldn't it be great if westerners went into an impoverished country, bought up all their crops for a fair price then gave them away for free to the locals?


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YES! FINALLY A GOOD IDEA! Afterwards we can all just ride our unicorns to the end of the rainbow and buy the leprechaun's gold for twice the market rate!

[NoahSD]

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On a not so slightly related note, RE: Africa Aid, wouldn't it be great if westerners went into an impoverished country, bought up all their crops for a fair price then gave them away for free to the locals?

and yeah interesting topic, it would not surprise me if you are right, America's a bit crazy IMO with their subsidies and import tax of foreign crops

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I'd be fine with the US just no longer paying farmers to grow less crop to keep food prices up.

[ALawPoker]

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He said that all the UN has to do to stop the war in Afghanistan is to legalise their poppy crop for use in the world pharmacutical markets. Once the money starts rolling in the warlords will lose or willingly give up their power.

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???

I read that article, but I don't see how this would "stop" the war. An improved economy certainly wouldn't be a bad thing, but to say that the harvesting of the poppy crop would suddenly "stop" the war is quite the statement.

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It seems that the UK is trying to head down this path.

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???

It does? It seems the British Medical Association is all for it, but that's about it. You make it sound as if the British political leaders are fighting desperately for this, but everyone else keeps shooting them down.

In fact (from the article)...
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But the UK and Afghan governments reject using the poppy fields to address the UK's diamorphine shortage.

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Beyond that, keep in mind a point made by Borodog in another thread on this forum: You have to realize that a scientist *wants* his work to seem important and *wants* to find reasons to increase funding for it. The UK government apparently realizes that.


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The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.

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Again, I really don't see much logic behind the point you're framing. The big "problem" seems to be that the government of the UK does not care about its medical associations research into this situation. Maybe you should wait till the UK government is actually behind this before you suggest that the US is to blame for an abrupt halt.

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It seems to me to be slightly distasteful that Western powers are hell bent on destroying the Afghan poppy crop when their own countries cultivate poppies for medicinal purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]
???

Not that I agree with it, but the fact is, this drug is illegal in the US (even for medicinal purposes, as far as I'm aware). What exactly do you expect to happen? "Oh hey, look, poppy crops. You guys can make heroin out of those. Go make heroin, and then the war can end!" And if that doesn't happen then they're "hellbent on destroying the crops"?

Feel free to explain yourself, but I think it's pretty obvious that you're taking stabs in the dark on a relatively unimportant issue just to frame your world view in a good light.

[adsman]

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He said that all the UN has to do to stop the war in Afghanistan is to legalise their poppy crop for use in the world pharmacutical markets. Once the money starts rolling in the warlords will lose or willingly give up their power.

[/ QUOTE ]
???

I read that article, but I don't see how this would "stop" the war. An improved economy certainly wouldn't be a bad thing, but to say that the harvesting of the poppy crop would suddenly "stop" the war is quite the statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Taliban relies heavily on support from the local population. Local warlords support the Taliban because they don't want to lose their drug income. Poor farmers support the Taliban because they see no other way in the short term to feed their families. If you can turn these groups over to support the foreign forces the Taliban would have a very hard time hanging on.

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It seems that the UK is trying to head down this path.

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???

It does? It seems the British Medical Association is all for it, but that's about it. You make it sound as if the British political leaders are fighting desperately for this, but everyone else keeps shooting them down.

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No, I didn't. I inferred that there was some debate on the subject, perhaps worded badly. I don't know where you get fighting desperately out of it.

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The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.

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Again, I really don't see much logic behind the point you're framing. The big "problem" seems to be that the government of the UK does not care about its medical associations research into this situation. Maybe you should wait till the UK government is actually behind this before you suggest that the US is to blame for an abrupt halt.

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Fair point.

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It seems to me to be slightly distasteful that Western powers are hell bent on destroying the Afghan poppy crop when their own countries cultivate poppies for medicinal purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]
???

Not that I agree with it, but the fact is, this drug is illegal in the US (even for medicinal purposes, as far as I'm aware). What exactly do you expect to happen? "Oh hey, look, poppy crops. You guys can make heroin out of those. Go make heroin, and then the war can end!" And if that doesn't happen then they're "hellbent on destroying the crops"?

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Now you're being silly, you know that I wasn't advocating the Afghan farmers producing heroin. There are a number of pharmaceutical products made from poppies. Furthermore, the world does not entirely revolve around the USA. There are huge protected poppy farms in Tasmania, Australia which are used to supply the local pharmaceutical industry. There is a shortage of these products in England. I have no doubt that in the current political climate in the US, Afghanistan could never export their drug products.

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Feel free to explain yourself, but I think it's pretty obvious that you're taking stabs in the dark on a relatively unimportant issue just to frame your world view in a good light.

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Thank you for granting me permission to explain myself. I don't know why you're being so antagonistic. I framed my OP in a clear way that explained that this subject came up from a conversation and that I'm not sure of all the details. I even ended my OP with a disclaimer that I could be way off base on this one. I might be, but at least I'm not a prick.

[ALawPoker]

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Furthermore, the world does not entirely revolve around the USA. There are huge protected poppy farms in Tasmania, Australia which are used to supply the local pharmaceutical industry.

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I didn't mean to imply that it does. But with your mention of "Western powers" in the context of the Afghan war, I just assumed (at least the brunt of) your post was directed at the US. But yes, I realize that you never actually singled out one country.

Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make remains. It's OK in my mind to be self-interested. The Australian government *should* care more about its citizens than the wellbeing of Afghanistan. If they allow their citizens to do something domestically that they are not OK with another country doing, I personally don't have a problem with that. I can see why it looks like hypocrisy, but I don't mind admitting that it's OK to be self-interested, or for a government to care more about its own citizens.


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Thank you for granting me permission to explain myself. I don't know why you're being so antagonistic. I framed my OP in a clear way that explained that this subject came up from a conversation and that I'm not sure of all the details. I even ended my OP with a disclaimer that I could be way off base on this one. I might be, but at least I'm not a prick.

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I'm sorry if I came across as a prick. Upon re-reading my post, I admit it was harsh, and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt before antagonizing. I was honestly confused with some of the connections you were making (and still am somewhat), and intended to reply politely, but apparently got carried away.

If you re-read your post, I think you'll be able to see why (intentional or not) it sort of suggested that the US is to blame for this. That's at least how I took it, and my apologies again if in err. The crux of what I was trying to say is that this is an issue that affects the UK, and currently the UK government is not even behind it. I think it's a very internal issue right now, and until the UK government is for it, it really makes no sense to question the policies of the UN or of other Western powers.

But I agree with your points of how the policy would be beneficial to both Afghanistan and the UK (and by extension, everyone involved). I just think the first step is getting the UK to fight for it.

[wet work]

The funny thing about the poppy problem in Afghanistan is that the Taliban had gotten total estimated yearly production down to 200tons. The US was even giving them aid money based on their efforts. Almost all this poppy was dedicated to medicinal use.

Then we go into Afghanistan after 9/11 and each year the crop steadily began to increase. Last figures I saw had
the crop hovering somewhere near 4000tons. Over these last few years an incredible amount of illegal money has been made in the opium trade out of Afghanistan. Mind you, there is tons of local corruption, even to the point where actual police vehicles are being used to transport poppy harvests. It's a situation that is basically out of control. If we wanted to wipe out the poppy crop in todo we could, or we could just buy it all and destroy it protecting US and world citizens from the huge amounts of heroin coming out of that region again. It makes you wonder why not. In Afghanistan poppy is cheap, it's not until it makes it to the street market that it's increased so much in value.

[nyc999]

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The funny thing about the poppy problem in Afghanistan is that the Taliban had gotten total estimated yearly production down to 200tons. The US was even giving them aid money based on their efforts. Almost all this poppy was dedicated to medicinal use.

Then we go into Afghanistan after 9/11 and each year the crop steadily began to increase. Last figures I saw had
the crop hovering somewhere near 4000tons. Over these last few years an incredible amount of illegal money has been made in the opium trade out of Afghanistan. Mind you, there is tons of local corruption, even to the point where actual police vehicles are being used to transport poppy harvests. It's a situation that is basically out of control. If we wanted to wipe out the poppy crop in todo we could, or we could just buy it all and destroy it protecting US and world citizens from the huge amounts of heroin coming out of that region again. It makes you wonder why not. In Afghanistan poppy is cheap, it's not until it makes it to the street market that it's increased so much in value.

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One of the primary reasons it has increased is the U.S. is turning a blind eye to production in exchange for cooperation with local warlords in the fight against the Taliban.

[wet work]

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The funny thing about the poppy problem in Afghanistan is that the Taliban had gotten total estimated yearly production down to 200tons. The US was even giving them aid money based on their efforts. Almost all this poppy was dedicated to medicinal use.

Then we go into Afghanistan after 9/11 and each year the crop steadily began to increase. Last figures I saw had
the crop hovering somewhere near 4000tons. Over these last few years an incredible amount of illegal money has been made in the opium trade out of Afghanistan. Mind you, there is tons of local corruption, even to the point where actual police vehicles are being used to transport poppy harvests. It's a situation that is basically out of control. If we wanted to wipe out the poppy crop in todo we could, or we could just buy it all and destroy it protecting US and world citizens from the huge amounts of heroin coming out of that region again. It makes you wonder why not. In Afghanistan poppy is cheap, it's not until it makes it to the street market that it's increased so much in value.

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One of the primary reasons it has increased is the U.S. is turning a blind eye to production in exchange for cooperation with local warlords in the fight against the Taliban.

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Exactly. We're allowing them to do it at the detriment of our own citizens and the people of Europe, where most of the heroin turns up on the black market. I think any BS you hear about working to eradicate the poppy is just lip service and there's no 'real' effort at all. It's a pretty old story, one that's been going on since Vietnam(probably even earlier with the mafia/corsicans during WWII), through the whole Bosnia mess, etc. We look the other way because the traffickers are on 'our' side.

I read an article a few years ago thar claimed that the two most powerful guys below Karzai are 1- the "King" of the opium grower and 2- The most powerful trafficker. Living in Baltimore, which has had one of the worst heroin problems since the '50s, I've always wondered why Karzai's brother set up shop with his restaurants in B-more, one of the best heroin markets in the US. Could just be coincidence but I have that little voice in the back of my head that sees sininster possibilities.

[cbloom]

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He said that all the UN has to do to stop the war in Afghanistan is to legalise their poppy crop for use in the world pharmacutical markets. Once the money starts rolling in the warlords will lose or willingly give up their power. It seems that the UK is trying to head down this path.


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This is totally wrong. The problems in Afghanistan go back to ancient tribal rivalries and religious factions. Their whole culture is based on a system of near-anarchy with only the jirgas and vendetta codes providing order.

Now it is true that without the poppies they would be incredibly poor which would hurt their ability to buy arms, but Al Qaeda / Iran / etc. would step up to help out. Actually it would probably make it much easier for the Taliban to retake the country since they have better foreign funding than the local warlords.

[MR EPI]

Here an Australian poppy grower chimes in.
http://www.poppies.org/news/99742218366555.shtml

[HP]

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On a not so slightly related note, RE: Africa Aid, wouldn't it be great if westerners went into an impoverished country, bought up all their crops for a fair price then gave them away for free to the locals?


[/ QUOTE ]

YES! FINALLY A GOOD IDEA! Afterwards we can all just ride our unicorns to the end of the rainbow and buy the leprechaun's gold for twice the market rate!

[/ QUOTE ]

so...

I'll take that as a 'nah i'm not into charity' ?

[AngusThermopyle]

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The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.
.....
Thoughts? Am I totally off base here?

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You have any source for this?

I really don't think the US has any poppy opium industry. I believe they import most of their licit opium from Turkey and India.

[wet work]

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The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.
.....
Thoughts? Am I totally off base here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have any source for this?

I really don't think the US has any poppy opium industry. I believe they import most of their licit opium from Turkey and India.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's what he had to mean, we are certainly not cultivating poppy here in the USA. Other than perhaps small illicit crops.

The seeds are legal to buy though, unlike buds, and a lot of little old ladies grow them because they area beautiful flower. I was reading some book a couple yrears ago and it claimed that no case has ever been to trial over anyone growing poppies in say their yard. I think it has to be proven you were growing them with the expressed intent on harvesting them for illicit purposes. That may be wrong though, but the book seemed pretty legit otherwise and it seemed plausible.

[NajdorfDefense]

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The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.
.....
Thoughts? Am I totally off base here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have any source for this?

I really don't think the US has any poppy opium industry. I believe they import most of their licit opium from Turkey and India.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no 'poppy industry' in the US. It was an absurd comment. Bona fide florists need permits just to import 1-2 a year. I'm pro-legalization [never happen] so I don't really care either way.

Real issue: The US should stop setting milk price supports based on the distance you are from Eau Claire, Wisconsin. As they've been doing for virtually 100 years now. In fact, you can be sued if you try to sell milk at a 'lower price' than the USDA sets to poorer markets in LA, Miami, Houston, etc. One dairy farmer who was selling to Costco just lost a $3m+ lawsuit over this recently in Calif.

[adsman]

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The big problem is that the US has a large protected poppy industry that would obviously be in trouble if this came about.
.....
Thoughts? Am I totally off base here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have any source for this?

I really don't think the US has any poppy opium industry. I believe they import most of their licit opium from Turkey and India.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no 'poppy industry' in the US. It was an absurd comment. Bona fide florists need permits just to import 1-2 a year. I'm pro-legalization [never happen] so I don't really care either way.



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Yeah, my bad. I directly quoted from the person that I was having the conversation with, without checking up on it. Next time I'll actually make it a quote, (or check it out, obviously.).

[TheCommieBear]

The heroin price in Europe has been halfed after the US invaded Afghanistan.

[NajdorfDefense]

in USD terms or Euro terms?
Link?

[wet work]

I'd imagine the purity at the street level is higher too.

[TimM]

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in USD terms or Euro terms?


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Isn't it half either way?

[NajdorfDefense]

no. Commodities have value in reference to the currency you are measuring such value in. Check out price of gold in USD vs gold in EUR for an example.

[FluffyTiger]

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no. Commodities have value in reference to the currency you are measuring such value in. Check out price of gold in USD vs gold in EUR for an example.

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i think he was assuming it'd be just like gold in that if it got halved in USD it would get halved in euros too

[GTL]

the reason people don't get in trouble simply for growing poppies is because it is not illegal to grow them. it is illegal to harvest opium from them. you do this by slicing the buds with a razor blade and collecting the sap. i assume that people have been prosecuted for this in the US.

the amazing thing that i read, was after the US went into afganistan within a few years, they had cornered 80% of the worldwide heroin market. that was stunning to me. not only were they able to produce an enormous amount, they must be selling the raw products very cheaply in order to steal the business from whoever else was supplying the [censored] in the meantime.

and for the posters worried about saving helpless americans from the evils of drugs. stopping people from growing poppies in afganistan won't make it any tougher to get H in the US.

[Colt McCoy]

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the amazing thing that i read, was after the US went into afganistan within a few years, they had cornered 80% of the worldwide heroin market. that was stunning to me. not only were they able to produce an enormous amount, they must be selling the raw products very cheaply in order to steal the business from whoever else was supplying the [censored] in the meantime.

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I don't think they took marketshare based on price. I'm pretty sure the other major exporters were shut down by government.

[NajdorfDefense]

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no. Commodities have value in reference to the currency you are measuring such value in. Check out price of gold in USD vs gold in EUR for an example.

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i think he was assuming it'd be just like gold in that if it got halved in USD it would get halved in euros too

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Incorrect, Euro went UP, USD went DOWN.

I'll allow others to elaborate.

[FluffyTiger]

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no. Commodities have value in reference to the currency you are measuring such value in. Check out price of gold in USD vs gold in EUR for an example.

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i think he was assuming it'd be just like gold in that if it got halved in USD it would get halved in euros too

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Incorrect, Euro went UP, USD went DOWN.

I'll allow others to elaborate.

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elaborate yourself you lazy ass :P

are you arbing for dollars on this?

and btw if you are talking about like .1% discrepancies then I'll be miffed