exploiting micro stakes games with high stakes plays

[mvdgaag]

Hi all,

I've been reading some of the posts in the Essential Selection of uNL (Last update 3/1)(FAQ inside) (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7758748&an=0&page=0#Post 7758748) threat. Great stuff! It has got me thinking.

Some plays, like reraising light and firing a second barrel (cause noone respects a cbet anymore) sound like higher stakes plays. Against a calling station it makes no sense firing that second barrel most of the time, or does it?

Any player at uNL i've played against has a very tight 3betting range. Most uNL players do not exploit this though, because they fear these big hands, while in fact they'll have an easy range to put there opponents on and huge implied odds, so if they're any good post flop it will more often be +EV to call than they think.
To exploit the fact that most players do not exploit the 3betting tightness one could (in my opinion) very well 3bet light at uNL games as well.
Also most uNL players are said to call too much. This is true, but against other players that cbet too often this is actually a (mistakenly) good play. To exploit players that do not take cbets serious anymore one could fire second barrels more often. This will also make them respect your cbets more often.

If you implement the above more often you become a typical player that is said to play way too loose and way to agressive without a hand. A maniac. Some posters here ask why maniacs do well that often and it is mostly answered by one word; variance. I think this is not true in a lot of cases. A style that might be observed as maniac play works very well for the reasons described above. The only thing is that you have to be selective with your opponents to use these plays. Will they call a cbet with nothing, because they assume you have nothing as well and fold to a turn bet because they think their conclusion at the flop was wrong? Will they fold often against a 3bet or put you on some kind of monster if they don't? If so, one could use the plays above. It works great for your image if other opponents see you do this as well.

What do you guys think?

[losingdonkey]

if you play anything other than abc poker in micro stakes you're going to be busto

[Gelford]

Congrats ... you are moving from playing your cards to actually noticing your opponents /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[VPIP100]

[ QUOTE ]
if you play anything other than abc poker in micro stakes you're going to be busto

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

[boycalledroy]

It's not all ABC, some of its XYZ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[losingdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you play anything other than abc poker in micro stakes you're going to be busto

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

[/ QUOTE ]

everytime I've tried to get fancy with calling stations I've lost money

[Vyse]

I do this a lot, but the problem is at micros you WILL simply get looked up too much. I like calling tight people's raises with random stuff in position just to hit the flop and bust em, and I double barrel a lot because NO ONE respects cbets on FT, but a lot of time it is spew. It's hard to learn when you are totally spewing.

ABC poker is best, but mixing in high stakes play, as you call it, is optimal. The trick is adding the perfect amount.

[mvdgaag]

TY /images/graemlins/smile.gif I feel I have always thought quite deep about my opponents, but just realy suck doing so. I play live with some friends every week and it goes I know he thinks that I think that he thinks, etc... It just doesn't work out most of the time :$.... How important is it do keep trying to think second/third level when you are convinced your opponents think about your and their actions what they represent if you keep failing? It happens so very often that I think "he can't call this, he must think I have this or that hand, so I bet" and lose anyways because he called anyways.

This post realy is a more general thought of playing certain opponents and not very hand specific, but more strategy specific. I hope this will give me more of an edge than my attempts at higher level thinking /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

About the hand specific thoughts. I think I fail a lot of the time, not because my thoughts and assumptions (of his actions given the hand I put him on) were incorrect, but because my opponent either does not think that deep, or I just put him on the wrong hand.

Would you recommend to stop trying these higher level thought plays untill it comes naturally, or go on tryin/practising untill I get it right?

Thanks for the replies!

[Foodchain]

I don't know if this is a high stakes play (probably it isn't since it requires villain to be very predictable), anyway:

once you note that a multitabling grinder/bonus whore is sitting at your table you can selectively bluff him out of many hands with reraises and pot sized second barrels. I have started doing this with nothing and it seems most grinders of this type are just trying to win by playing ABC and are not into playing for stacks to call down a bluff. Obviously I get stacked when they happen to have the nuts, but I win a lot in between.

[eigenvalue]

[ QUOTE ]
if you play anything other than abc poker in micro stakes you're going to be busto

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried 2nd barreling several times on a few session. Phew, that cost money. And reraising light in uNL is the safest and fastest way to spend money!

There are lots of moves in higher limits that work well that don't in NL25 and downwards, and there are nice moves in the micros that make you money in a very short period of time that don't work anymore in higher stakes. An easy example is to just go all-in preflop with QQ+. This is the fastest and easiest way to eran fast and easy money at NL10 downwards, but it will not work that good at NL25 and above.

[Thremp]

eigen,

You bring up an excellent point. Games do start to change from NL5 etc to NL50.

[mvdgaag]

[ QUOTE ]
I do this a lot, but the problem is at micros you WILL simply get looked up too much. I like calling tight people's raises with random stuff in position just to hit the flop and bust em, and I double barrel a lot because NO ONE respects cbets on FT, but a lot of time it is spew. It's hard to learn when you are totally spewing.

ABC poker is best, but mixing in high stakes play, as you call it, is optimal. The trick is adding the perfect amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that the cbets are not respected and people look you up way too often. This is great for getting value for your big hands!

For your weaker holdings it is a disaster though. You cannot defend a hand properly and bluffing can hardly be done.

Why do you think people look you up too often and do not respect your cbets? I think it is because they need more pressure to fold. They overestimate their chances and secondly they think you play the same way they do.
Many players cbet all the time without a hand and slow down on the turn if they're called. But with a hand they'll most often bet the turn as well. They also think you'll do exactly the same. So if you give a cbet the second barrel (that it deserves against these players) this will be reason for them to fold far more often. Betting bigger or chosing stronger plays will force them to respect your bets.

I have not tried any of this over a significant amount of hands, it's just something I'm trying out ATM and I don't know if it's going to work out. Doing quite ok though.

For anyone that is convinced it does not work out: Why do uNL players not respect your cbets and why do they look you up too often? This is the insight that one needs to be able to properly exploit their mistakes. Valuebetting more only goes so far.

Thanks again & GL

Maarten

[Warteen]

At microstakes, it is a good idea to understand your opponent (as best you can) BEFORE trying things like double-barrelling. Have I seen this opponent lay down what might have been a good hand? Does the opponent often slowplay big hands? These are trends you need to watch for before trying these so-called high stakes plays. Once you start playing your opponents (but not before), they can be very profitable.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

DO NOT get fancy at NL25. There have been several times when I have a great idea of what people have (Middle Pair, Two pair on a four flush board) and I simply CANNOT BET enough to get them off it. At microstakes, just valuebet valuebet valuebet.

[mvdgaag]

Thanks for sharing your experience with these concepts. Most, if not all, of my winnings come from my better understanding of (implied) odds and EV than my average opponent. But I'd like to win more from outplaying my opponents and exploiting their mistakes. I've read a couple of books, seen lots of video's and am playing for two years now (serious since 6 months or so). So I know the basics as described in the obligatory literature (EV, odds and outs, how to adjust to a loose game, how to adjust to stack sizes, pot size philosophy, etc). What I feel I lack compared to better players is to adjust my plays to exlpoit my opponents mistakes more specifically.

Could you guys please share more plays that do exploit uNL well? Or point out some books that describe more advanced or tailored plays?

Thanks a lot!

[AceLuby]

IMO anything but ABC poker at uNL is a losing proposition. Not so much because the plays don't work (because sometimes they do), but because we know so little about our opponents so often that we can't make the play profitably. At higher limits you start playing the same players and the moves need to get more complex, which is also why you can play fancier poker in a regular 'home' game that shouldn't be used online. Just my opinion.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO anything but ABC poker at uNL is a losing proposition. Not so much because the plays don't work (because sometimes they do), but because we know so little about our opponents so often that we can't make the play profitably. At higher limits you start playing the same players and the moves need to get more complex, which is also why you can play fancier poker in a regular 'home' game that shouldn't be used online. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed 100%

[mvdgaag]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO anything but ABC poker at uNL is a losing proposition. Not so much because the plays don't work (because sometimes they do), but because we know so little about our opponents so often that we can't make the play profitably. At higher limits you start playing the same players and the moves need to get more complex, which is also why you can play fancier poker in a regular 'home' game that shouldn't be used online. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

So to play 'real' poker I need to move up in stakes, simple as that?

[Angrymoog]

It's all "real." It's about determining the best way to exploit your opponent. I'm not one to be talking, I have a huge fancy play leak that I'm starting to realize needs major attention. But the point is, you really should play good, solid ABC when you don't know your opponent yet.

It just so happens at the smallest stakes the major weakness of your opponents is continuing with marginal hands and calling down too much in general. So you tailor your play to take advantage of that.

[Thremp]

You can bluff raise rivers, mix it up and float or whatever you wanna do. You just need the right opponents.

[corsakh]

Calling 3bet is one thing. Making 3bets light is different. In some rooms and on some tables it may be profitable from tiem to time. In reality, in most cases, you just gonna get called and then called again on the flop if they have any piece of it and an Ace or King did noy come.

Firing a second barrel in micros is certainly not a good idea against your average opponent.

[matrix]

this is partly true - and partly not true.

IME recently while I have been tearing up the $25NL tables I have found plenty of spots where I can read people like open books - and manipulate them into doing what I want (usually folding)

It comes down to experience and hand reading - and more often than not being reliably able to peg players for what they are sooner rather than later.

For new players who haven't got the hang of reading hands so well yet - just stick with ABC poker and valuebet valuebet valuebet.

It doesn't hurt to try things out tho - and better to learn a skill at low limits on the cheap than have to learn it when you've moved up.

I play like nittyMcnitperson for the first 30 hands or so on tables I sit at - unless I'm sitting with known players - I find now in that time I can work out who the biggest fish are - what they are doing specifically that is so bad and then try to take advantage. However even tho my game has improved lots compared to a year ago I wouldn't try any "moves" on anyone until I have a read.

reading people is a little easier at $50NL than $25NL

making moves vs unknowns is just spew.

Depends on table conditions/image, started 3betting much lighter in position since I moved to 25NL but I usualy don`t like 2nd barreling very much unless I`m semibluffing. Also, when I decide to 3bet someone PF I usualy make a decent size 3bet to avoid giving people the right odds to call with pp for set value. If they call they usualy have a big hand.

[Vyse]

matrix, how many tables do you multi?

[spyderracing]

[ QUOTE ]
TY /images/graemlins/smile.gif I feel I have always thought quite deep about my opponents, but just realy suck doing so. I play live with some friends every week and it goes I know he thinks that I think that he thinks, etc... It just doesn't work out most of the time :$.... How important is it do keep trying to think second/third level when you are convinced your opponents think about your and their actions what they represent if you keep failing? It happens so very often that I think "he can't call this, he must think I have this or that hand, so I bet" and lose anyways because he called anyways.

This post realy is a more general thought of playing certain opponents and not very hand specific, but more strategy specific. I hope this will give me more of an edge than my attempts at higher level thinking /images/graemlins/smile.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]

This part I found interesting. You may be thinking too high for your opposition. You can only think 1 level higher than your opponents or you begin to trip over yourself and you gain no more edge than you originally had at the one level higher. It sounds like your opponents are only playing their cards and that's 0th level thinking. That means 1st level thinking is going to be most effective (as in "What do I think he has"). If he was thinking on the first level you could step to the second and think "What does he think I have". For the most part second level thinking is good up until the mid-high stakes. I hope all of this makes sense and no one has said this yet because I'm grunching.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
matrix, how many tables do you multi?

[/ QUOTE ]

two.

I play 4 sometimes - but I like playing two.

[jonyy6788]

While you might consider double-barreling a "higher stakes move", it really isn't. Everybody and their brother is calling down c-bets. This weekend I raised QJ UTG....rag flop and a somewhat competent player on flop xxx, turn was K, so I fired again and he called again. We checked the river and he flipped AQ hi card FTW. I never thought this guy was a calling station, but it proved out to be that way.


While I'm advocating ABC pokah at NL25 and down, ABC pokah DOES include 2-barrels on good boards (ie K or A on turn). ABC pokah does include value betting too, but wayyyyyy too many people just have zero pot control. If you have some not so good, aggro opponents and you got a hand with showdown, turn into a calling station. If you got an overpair, or especially top pair, don't be afraid to check one street if something doesn't seem right.

Even something more important I've learned is that people will eventually catch on to what you're doing (yes even at NL25) if you play every hand the same way, C-bet every flop, etc. Changing gears is so simple, but it just [censored] with players at micro stakes so much. It makes their head spin when you go from aggro postflop-->calling station. After they see u turn into a station with a good hand, the next time you bet they're not gonna respect you (guess what that means, a lot of EVEN lighter calling from villains and you profit).

Another huge leak to exploit is players at NL25 play terribly in 3-bet pots. They either a) don't 3-bet enuf and they flip their hand over or b) They call back 3-bets way too much with hands that have RIO. I seriously got called by this TAG at NL25 that has decent stats (20/16+) and he had K10s which was just killed by my KK.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
While you might consider double-barreling a "higher stakes move", it really isn't. Everybody and their brother is calling down c-bets. This weekend I raised QJ UTG....rag flop and a somewhat competent player on flop xxx, turn was K, so I fired again and he called again. We checked the river and he flipped AQ hi card FTW. I never thought this guy was a calling station, but it proved out to be that way.


While I'm advocating ABC pokah at NL25 and down, ABC pokah DOES include 2-barrels on good boards (ie K or A on turn). ABC pokah does include value betting too, but wayyyyyy too many people just have zero pot control. If you have some not so good, aggro opponents and you got a hand with showdown, turn into a calling station. If you got an overpair, or especially top pair, don't be afraid to check one street if something doesn't seem right.

Even something more important I've learned is that people will eventually catch on to what you're doing (yes even at NL25) if you play every hand the same way, C-bet every flop, etc. Changing gears is so simple, but it just [censored] with players at micro stakes so much. It makes their head spin when you go from aggro postflop-->calling station. After they see u turn into a station with a good hand, the next time you bet they're not gonna respect you (guess what that means, a lot of EVEN lighter calling from villains and you profit).

Another huge leak to exploit is players at NL25 play terribly in 3-bet pots. They either a) don't 3-bet enuf and they flip their hand over or b) They call back 3-bets way too much with hands that have RIO. I seriously got called by this TAG at NL25 that has decent stats (20/16+) and he had K10s which was just killed by my KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

One interesting tendency I've noticed a long time ago, is people are willing to call cbets, raises and even 3bets on the flop with all sorts of air. Then they instal fold the turn. But this is if they have air. If they have a piece, they will usually call 2nd barrel again because they think you are bluffing. However, they will often fold this piece on the turn if you checked the flop because they think you are slowplying a big hand because this is how they think and hence can relate to this soft of play.

So.. get to the point. Instead of 2nd barrelling hopeless villains, delay cbet them on the turn. Looks much stronger to them.

[Thremp]

On the topic of 3bet flops.

I find 2 ways to combat this.

1) 4betting lighter.
2) Calling with drawing hands and riding dirtay with draws etc more often.

Usually I do this to slow them down instead of just going crazy.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
matrix, how many tables do you multi?

[/ QUOTE ]

two.

I play 4 sometimes - but I like playing two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother.

I love playing just two tables. It's enough to generally keep you occupied without exhausting you, but slow enough that you can actually play attention to what each player does and quickly start forming a profile of how they play, and what they do in particular situations. Not to mention your playing fewer hands during those brief periods of tilt. I shudder to think how much even one half hour of tilt would cost someone playing 8-12 tables.

EDIT: (Forgot type the part of this that was applicable to this thread)

This ability to observe your opponents is crucial when deciding to do something outside the realm of ABC poker. Like was mentioned earlier, getting a read is pretty much necessary before getting even the least bit fancy, and playing only one or two tables lets you remember little details as to what villain took to showdown, whether or not he bet, called, whatever before laying it down on the turn, etc., and get the read quicker. Then you can get down to draining their stack.

[Frosteater]

The following post is about the importance of adapting your plays to the general abilities of your opponent and contains a quick rundown of a selection of different types of players at uNL and what might work against them and what won't. In case of tl;dr skip to the last paragraph for a conclusion.

[ QUOTE ]
You may be thinking too high for your opposition. You can only think 1 level higher than your opponents [...]

[/ QUOTE ]

I had to point this out, it's so true and I think it's why ABC poker is so often recommended at these stakes. Also, as has been pointed out, these plays you mentioned in the initial post do work, but it really depends on your opponent and this is the crucial aspect of uNL imo - knowing whom you're against.

At the moment I call $10NL 6Max at Stars my home and the opposition is absolutely vast in quality, if that expression makes any sense. I mean, when you sit down at a table, you could be facing anyone.

There's the typical fish, who indeed isn't necessarily that stupid, but has no or barely any idea of things like hand selection or pot odds. Some are smarter and therefor more capable than others, but they basically all play their cards. There are instances, when they think about your hand and suspect they might be beat, but those are few, like if they hold a six of diamonds on a board with four diamonds. Other than that they usually look at their hand and make a decision and that decision is more or less "do I want to play this hand?". If their answer's positive, you actually have a very hard time pushing them off their hand. They could be betting $1 into a $3 pot, get raised to $4 and still call without much thought. They decided to play and they will, a large raise is more often an annoyance than a reason for re-thinking their hand. So you know they don't have a strong hand, but what are you going to do? They won't let go of it, and I think this is where the often referred to ABC poker is the route to take, because you know they want to play their hands if they called your c-bet and you know you will get paid. You can still get a bit tricky if you don't have a hand at all but know they were on a flush draw that they didn't hit on the river, but as far as I found out everything else is just spewing chips. I know too well how frustrating it is to make a play at a weak opponent, just to get called down all the way with bottom pair, but what are you going to do - you're going to have a tough time 2nd-leveling people who barely 1st-level themselves.

Then you have the braindead. All-in maniacs as well as moronic kind of fish, who call pre-flop raises oop with 93o or call all the way down with pocket fours unimproved, because, you know, they are tired of their aces being outkicked and since you don't have fours, you can't have a higher kicker - or some sort of bizarre logic. I guess there's a slight chance, your experience with c-bets getting no respect might come solely from this breed of mammal. In that case, it's not because they've seen what you're doing and are playing back, it's because they're retarded. Don't even think of trying something fancy against them. Not only can i guarantee you it won't work, but there's also the slight chance of your brain taking some serious damage. Leveling these guys? Heck, them being able to operate a computer to the point where they reach a poker table is already an unexplainable mystery to me.

Also, there is quite a legion of passive rocks, where you have a few more opportunities. For a change, these guys are usually bluffable, so you can consider a few plays. Still, double-barrelling might be a bad idea, since they called a c-bet, which means they usually have a piece of the board and given their range it's probably not a small one. I believe (and hopefully the more experienced players are going to correct me on this one) though, 3-betting light pre-flop is often better than calling, especially in position, since you know they're tight enough to give your reraise some kind of respect and you know you'll act first on the flop and have a good chance to take it down, especially if you were the pre-flop aggressor.

And of course you have the regular TAGs. From reading here and playing just a few sessions, one might get the impression uNL is populated with nothing but fish, but this forum exists and is populated well, so you know you'll eventually end up against the 24/16/4 type of player, who uses uNL as a training ground for their skills and/or bankroll. I think this is where the techniques you mentioned come into play, because now you're up against players who try to put you on a hand and, what might be more important, know to an extent what they're doing and because of this how to judge your reaction. And while the horrible min-raise, the weapon of choice for the tricky fish, is usually reason enough to shut down without a great hand, against the TAG-ish pre-flop raiser, a $0.7 sized continuation bet into a $1.2 pot more often than not deserves a re-raise with a low unimproved pocket pair, because these guys usually know how to size their c-bets properly and they usually know you're above-standard because you play the way you do, so in conclusion they will make the fold they're capable of, because they're aware that there's always a more profitable spot against a less capable opponent to get their money in.

So, if you allow me to conclude my rant, I think the question isn't so much whether the kind of play you described can be profitable at the micros, it can be without a doubt, but if you're - as the previous posters have pointed out - up against the type of player, against whom these tactics are profitable. While there certainly are opponents like that at these stakes, they're everything but common, so I'd avoid making the "advanced plays" a staple yet. What I'd suggest, though, is considering them and, before you can do that, getting a quick read on what kind of opponent you're playing and/or using your hud, in case you have one, to your advantage when it comes to quickly judging what an opponent might be capable of and what not.

[mvdgaag]

good post, great read! Thanks! I think I must agree that at uNL more than anywhere a read on your players is very important. Not that it is not at higher levels, but there is more difference between uNL players and that asks for better reads to properly adjust. The plays as mentioned are meant to use against certain types of players and although they can easily be found at uNL, many other players where these plays are just horrible also lurk the waters.

[kabouter]

I think the above post sums it up quite well, but I just want to add, that there is a big difference between 2nl/5nl and 10nl/25nl and 50nl/100nl.

You probably won't see me make moves like this at 10nl

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $110.10
CO: $267.59
Button: $158.63
LinzayLohan: $107.25
BB: $98.10

Pre-flop: (5 players) LinzayLohan is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">LinzayLohan raises to $3</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">LinzayLohan bets $5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $12</font>, <font color="#cc0000">LinzayLohan raises to $30</font>, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $18 returned to LinzayLohan.

Results:
Final pot: $30

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $100.50
CO: $102.60
Button: $272.04
SB: $158.53
LinzayLohan: $122.45

Pre-flop: (5 players) LinzayLohan is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $3.5</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">LinzayLohan raises to $10</font>, Button calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($20.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">LinzayLohan bets $15</font>, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $15 returned to LinzayLohan.

Results:
Final pot: $20.5

[Freelancer]

First of all I read the entire thread and disagree with the people who say that 'high stakes' moves like 3betting light and to a lesser extend double barreling can not be used profitably at uNL.

Here are some of the moves I am using regularily at party 50nl right now (play similar to stars 25nl from my experience);
3betting light
This is a pure goldmine if you use it against the right opponents, you need to be able to have a solid postflop game however. A lot of people are downright spewy in 3bet pots or extremely easy to put on a hand. Basically there are three types of people you have to be concerned about when you 3bet;
1) The stations, we all know these and you shouldn't be 3betting them light. They'll call preflop with whatever and are rough to move off a hand postflop, basically your bloating a pot with a marginal hand against someone where you don't need to. The people with a very tight raising range also fall into the category because they will have a premium hand way to often to 3bet profitably. The 3bet itself is based after all on FE and not your own cards. So if they fall in this category keep to your regular TT+,AQ+ range and don't mess with them (against some its QQ+/AK).
2) The villains who respect your 3bets even if you 3bet them 4 times in a row, these are the guys you want to 3bet light. They are going to wait for a big hand and continue to raise/fold untill they'r broke. You can go totally crazy against them, just make sure you don't put anymore money in if they suddenly decide to call. At this point its pointless to cbet because you can expect a call or c/r (once they decide to call they'r either planning to make a move or they have a big hand). So 3bet these guys a lot but prepare to back off when they wake up, once they played back once I usually leave them alone for a few rounds and than start the madness again.
3) The spewy target, these people will often call your 3bet preflop and make moves postflop trying to bluff you. In this category fall two type of players; The VERY good and the VERY bad, the very good are adapting to your light 3betting and playing back according. However the very good won't go overboard, they may seem spewy occasionally but in general they'r very tough to play against and history matters a lot. And the VERY bad are the people who just assume your bluffing all the time and will try to rebluff at every oppertunity, also called maniacs. This category is very tough to 3bet light but it can be done if your VERY good postflop and it involves a lot of checking and calling bets c/r light. Usually though your better of sticking to a fairly tight raising range and only occasionally mix in a light 3bet against the very good and always 3bet tight against the maniac.

Double barreling
So far this has only been spewing at these limits and they rarely fold, occasionally I find a opponent where I can use it occasionally.

Personal favorite move; cbet and c/r the turn
This move is awesome against those 'tricky' tags who are always trying to outplay you, there aren't many of these around but if you find one this move works wonders to slow them down. Its because most tags range looks something like this when they call the cbet and bet the turn;
Draw/air ------ 1p hand ----- Monster
Against this range most tags will fold everything but a monster and occasonially they'll call with a draw (handy thing to keep in mind is making this move with a medium pair or someting so you can check it down and win against a draw). All you have to do is decide based on recent history and stuff if his range is more tilted towards monster or air and decide accordingly. Easier said than done obviously, if you mix it in sometimes you'll become VERY hard to read. This is NOT a move that I recommend to anyone at these stakes, its a nice tidbit to keep in the back of your mind though and perhaps the right situation comes up.


Counters to often used 'moves';
Calling cbets light
There are basically two ways to counter this, first one is to double barrel more often. This is a decent way, but I'm not really using it because people are still calling down a lot. If it works its nice though, you get a lot more money if they fold a large percentage to a double barrel. At this limit there aren't a whole lot of people who fit this profile though.
The second way is to cbet less often on raggy flops/paired boards, this is what I've been using mostly. Because your range becomes more tilted towards hands that beat them the calldown becomes WAY less profitable, it also adds some deception to your game and you become harder to read. This is mostly a feel thing though, I weirdly enough often find myself checking behind when my opponent has a monster. Part of this is timing tells and experience but it feels awesome when you know villain has missed A TON of value just because you checked behind at the right time.

3betting light
This is a tough cookie to counter, in general if someone on your left is constantly 3betting light your better of leaving. If that isn't an option (HUGE fish on the table) you can do a few things to counter it;
1) 4bet light, not the greatest thing to do. Most people who 3bet very light expect people to do this and its easy to adapt to this (3bet less often) however its a valuable tool to slowdown a light 3bettor.
2) Tighten up your raising range so that your range becomes more tilted towards 'big hands' making the 3bet less profitable.
3) Call in position and make a lot of moves postflop, this is a VERY high variance way of countering it and you need to be able to read hands VERY good. Its probably not a good idea for 95% of the players...



I don't really consider any of these moves very far beyond basic ABC strategy and any good tag should have them in there arsenal, its not really needed to use them at these limits but its good and cheap practice to try them out. Especially 3betting light requires a ton of experience and the experience is quite costly (I remember when I tried out 3betting light for the first time at FTP, I was a mad spew maniac but thats ok because I learned a lot) so your better of trying it at uNL than at the higher stakes...




Ps. This post turned out longer than I expected so enjoy. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[creamfillin]

What do you guys consider an 'ideal' situation to double barrel with AK?

[munkey]

I recently are somewhat regretting some 2nd barrels on known regulars, where they still called with small PP's - though they do help my tight image.

It still amazes what even 'solid' players will call with on the turn if it goes to showdown.

I still think it's fine to 3bet light, semi-bluff e.t.c as long as Matrix says you know your villans tendencies or have them pegged as likely to be exploitable. Since I only do these things when I think it seems right and vs the right villans I end up doing it occasionally and I think it's fine and helps improve your game(&amp; winrate in the cold card stretches).
http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/7/3/6/f_FPSgraphm_1771dea.jpg

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you guys consider an 'ideal' situation to double barrel with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]
Against a abc predictable basic TAG who'll call small PP's and fold them on the turn...

Or offcourse if you have TPTK. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Also a board looking something like;
255Q rainbow
Would be a nice plus. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mvdgaag]

Another great read! Thanks a lot!

[munkey]

Freelancer vn post

[ QUOTE ]
Personal favorite move; cbet and c/r the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I might try a 'Freelancer' semi stack-a-donk more often - I tend to bet the turn quite alot more rather than c/raise currently.

[ QUOTE ]
vs. 3betting light on your left

[/ QUOTE ]

I think jkrantz in the well said tighten up your range, then bust him with top of your range since you'll ahead more often than vs a usual 3bettor - I tried this recently[small sample size obv] and worked well, combned with folding more to 3bets with crappier hands I opened with like u suggested in Microbrew yesterday.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Freelancer vn post

[ QUOTE ]
Personal favorite move; cbet and c/r the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I might try a 'Freelancer' semi stack-a-donk more often - I tend to bet the turn quite alot more rather than c/raise currently.

[ QUOTE ]
vs. 3betting light on your left

[/ QUOTE ]

I think jkrantz in the well said tighten up your range, then bust him with top of your range since you'll ahead more often than vs a usual 3bettor - I tried this recently[small sample size obv] and worked well, combned with folding more to 3bets with crappier hands I opened with like u suggested in Microbrew yesterday.

[/ QUOTE ]
Be carefull with my 'move' though, I also use it with monsters as well but only if I know villain doesn't care about pot control (ie. won't check behind the turn with draws/pairs). It works awesome if you c/r them on the turn, basically there 1p hands suddenly find themselves in a situation where they can't control the pot anymore so villain can make HUGE mistakes while if you just double barrel with your monsters you allow tags to play close to perfect against you. But as I said experimenting with this is very risky...


Also a move I forgot;
Raising donkbets when you have the lead preflop
At 200nl I use this religiously but I was forced to slowdown a bit at 50nl, works wonders against donks and some tags who lead weak hands into you for 'information' and 'pot control'. Be carefull though that some people are still using the b/3bAI line and that some donks just plain refuse to fold. At 200nl I pretty much raise every donkbet the first time around if villain is unknown, this isn't quite as feasible at 50nl but I still use it sparingly. I raise pretty much with anything on the flop but prefer gutshots/overcards or flush/straigt draws...



Edit; My 'move' is obviously a counter to habitual floaters...

[Gelford]

Edit: This is a semi Grunch ... I have spotted that Jonny and matrix also address some of this /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nice article Freelancer .... not surprisingly, I've been thinking much about these things as well recently. So I'll add a bit to what you have written.


The thing is that in my view there is a big misconception about these things and basically I do not like the term moves especially with regards to 3betting.


Here is how I think about these things

3betting is a design, where you know that the raiser is raising 'light' ... perhaps he is first in on the button. We are assuming a thinking player.

When you threebet, you are basically saying, my 3 betting range is tighter than your raising range, so I am ahead of you ... go ahead make my day ... look me up. The fact that most villians have a very tight 3betting range at uNL only adds power to this. (AK, QQ+ is what Harrington only considers worth reraising)

After a while you and villian start to adjust ... villian tightens up or starts to fourbet you or float your cbets .. whatever .. and then you adjust.

Calling this a move is absurd imo and yes, like freelancer already has said, 3betting is essensial also at uNL (at least 25/50NL)


Then there is cbetting and 2nd barreling ... those might be labeled moves, but I like to think of them as protection.

Read Theory of Poker on optimal bluffing frequencies. As I have preached a zillion times before in posts, while it is nice to pick up a small pot with a cbet, the main purpose of cbetting is to protect your made hands. If you always come out betting, then it is impossible to see if you have a hand or not and thus making it more likely for your big hands to get paid off.

Double barreling serves the same purpose, when people start to float you, you start to double barrel thus again making it hard for them to float and protecting your made hands.
At 50NL there aren't many floaters, and thus doublebarreling is reminisent of spewing.


And on a final note, 3betting light also protects your big hands like QQ+, since if you never three bet, you kind of giveaway your hand when holding AA.




Making a move is in my view getting a read of weakness and taking advantage of it or the board changing in a way, that allows you to represent a hand that is stronger than what villian holds (if you betting pattern earlier in the hand is consistant with what you are representing)

[mvdgaag]

How about calling 3bets? I normally see 3bets as a good opportunity (as long as we're both deep) to break aces, kings or a big ace if I catch two pair, trips or a big draw if I'm in position. Is this a good thing, or is the call too expensive to make up for postflop?


Example: I raised first in with a small pocket pair or suited connector and now someone 3bets that doesn't 3bet light very often (or not at all like most uNL players).

I can easily call with the small pair as long as we're deep enough. He has defined his hand even better and if I catch trips I'm stacking him a lot more often.

How about suited connectors?

Thanks all

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
How about calling 3bets? I normally see 3bets as a good opportunity (as long as we're both deep) to break aces, kings or a big ace if I catch two pair, trips or a big draw if I'm in position. Is this a good thing, or is the call too expensive to make up for postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]


Well actually 3betting light ... protects your big hands in other ways than just disguising your aces. If you 3bet a lot, then villian can't call you in the hope of hitting a set or a draw, because since you are in there with a lot of marginal holdings, then chances are, that you will not pay villian off postflop, if he hits his set.

So with regards to calling 3bets, if villian is one of those only 3bet with AA/KK and then felt it types, you can call and setmine.

Against freelancer ... you can't.

[Freelancer]

@Gelford A regular 2p2 range of TT+/AQ+ (this IS a regular range for most people I presume? if not thats the first thing you can change) can probably be used up to nl600 or so, basically 3betting light is another way to increase your ptbb/100 a bit but its not mandatory. At the higher stakes almost every winning player is 3betting light and its pretty much mandatory...
Your right that 3betting light has A LOT to do with history/image and how villains view you, basically my viewpoint is that for 3betting your cards are pretty much irrelevant (I 3bet anything from KQ---&gt;AJ----&gt;sc's----&gt;Q8s----&gt;small PP's) but recent history/image and the specific villain is what makes it profitable. Its a nice exercise that in some spots your own cards are pretty much irrelevant (this comes up postflop as well, although not nearly as often) because at that single point in time raising based on FE alone is +ev...


In general your better of folding to 3bets with PP's/sc's unless you have a good feel of your opponent and when your getting deeper (think 150bbs+) you can start calling. One of the mistakes A LOT of people make is calling light 3bets with pp's and playing fit or fold on the flop, this is a recipe for disaster !!

For instance if villain is decent (take me for example) and is 3betting light, and where both 2 buys ins deep or so. If you start playing fit or fold with PP's/sc's your losing money against me (yes I know I said if you get deeper you can start calling, this doesn't work against everyone) because the times you hit a set I am NOT going broke with overpairs, I actually found that the people who do this against me are more likely to go broke against me themself because they play with there hands pretty much face up. If you start calling my 3bets with PP's/sc's you NEED to make thin calls postflop or prepared to make moves with draws/air occasionally or else I'll run you over.


Meh I'm not sure if posting all of this is a great idea, but hopefully I move up faster than the rest of you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[avfletch]

Here's a quick freebie for exploiting all those 'I called because you looked weak' donks out there (think FTP which is frankly full of them).

The situation: Folded to you on the button, you raise XY to pot/4BB whatever.

Random non-tighty/non-station BB calls.

Flop comes something like J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Normal plan: You pot it, get called and have no clue what to do. Your second barrel (when you fire it) ends up being 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot, you look weak and get called again, you give up on the river and get shown pocket 7s/JTs or something like that and your Ax/KQo/whatever cries.

The new plan: You bet 1/2 pot and he 'calls because you look weak' then you fire a PSB on the turn almost regardless of what comes.

If he's even remotely thinking then your play looks tricky/trappy to him and your bet on the street you want him to fold will be full pot rather than half to 2/3.

Do this against an aggro flop check raiser or a station and you deserve to lose your money. Do this against all the sucky TAGs that have heard they have shown down value with 77 or whatever and it's free money.

YMMV.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a quick freebie for exploiting all those 'I called because you looked weak' donks out there (think FTP which is frankly full of them).

The situation: Folded to you on the button, you raise XY to pot/4BB whatever.

Random non-tighty/non-station BB calls.

Flop comes something like J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Normal plan: You pot it, get called and have no clue what to do. Your second barrel (when you fire it) ends up being 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot, you look weak and get called again, you give up on the river and get shown pocket 7s/JTs or something like that and your Ax/KQo/whatever cries.

The new plan: You bet 1/2 pot and he 'calls because you look weak' then you fire a PSB on the turn almost regardless of what comes.

If he's even remotely thinking then your play looks tricky/trappy to him and your bet on the street you want him to fold will be full pot rather than half to 2/3.

Do this against an aggro flop check raiser or a station and you deserve to lose your money. Do this against all the sucky TAGs that have heard they have shown down value with 77 or whatever and it's free money.

YMMV.

[/ QUOTE ]
1) There aren't that many situations in uNL where betting half pot is correct.
2) I'd bet ~2/3 pot on flop, 3/4 pot on turn pretty much regardless of my holdings. Against some villains I mix up my betsizing on the turn if I think I can manipulate them or when there not very observant...
3) Example 2 is pretty much basic double barreling strategy?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif


Edit; Some donks have a tendency to think; Well he's betting big so he probably wants me to fold, so lets do the opposite and call !! (raising doesn't enter there mind)
Against them your pretty much better of value betting big and decreasing your cbet percentage with air/draws.

[matrix]

3 betting light @uNL...

meh.

I 3bet for value with QQ+ AK

I 3bet squeeze *sometimes* vs the right kind of "zomg he must have AA" preflop players.

apart from that I rarely 3bet preflop. I get a bunch of players who are obv overaggro donks and are 3betting me light - I min 4bet them with solid hands and snap call their pushes.

I stay away from "good" players - there are juicy tables everywhere - and I only play 2 at a time anyways so I got bundles of choice.

Freelancer:

in re-raised pots betting much over half pot is rarely correct /images/graemlins/smile.gif - otherwise you are about right. The only other goot 1/2 pot betting spots I can think of is where you want to induce action from players who have recently read HOH's Continuation betting section and think half pot bets are always bluffs...

Waaaay too many people 2/3 or PSB flops in 3bet pots as a CB bluff - spew.

[munkey]

It seems quite a few of us have been thinking over these things recently...

[ QUOTE ]
Waaaay too many people 2/3 or PSB flops in 3bet pots as a CB bluff - spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

2/3 pot on flop in 3bet pot is my standard [I got this from some Jam's posts so don't know if it applies to my tight wad image:p ]. I also check quite a lot of flops in 3bet pots w/ w/o goods and also in positon.

It seems to strike a semi-balance, though I see other SSNLers use 1/2 pot so am going to try some 1/2 pot betting for a weekend or so.

Like you mention Matrix though 2/3 often gets me more calls than I would ideally desire, so may be 1/2 may get more :doh:

I should add I'm not a chronic 3bettor, most of the time it's standard TT+,AQs+,~20% other, I agree finding fish and calling with great implied odds is better so it does annoy me when you get a 'TAG' at your table that thinks outplaying other regs &gt;&gt;&gt; joining the family pot and stacking the other 3 fishies at the table /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[matrix]

I think much more than 1/2 pot as a "bluff" is spew.

If they're going to fold - they'll fold just as often to a little over half rather than 2/3 - if they are going to call they'll call.

It's a fairly safe bet that they won't raise your flop bet in a 3bet pot without a moster.

the times that your bluff is called/raised and you decide to fold the hand - all those times you just lost an extra few BB's when you bet 2/3 rather than 1/2ish and that adds up.

If you got the goods and get your half pot bet called it's now almost a certainty that stacks are going in cos the pot is generally so big now relative to stack sizes.

tho if you got a read that villain will call most flop bets and fold the turn no matter what odds the pot is offering him and you are betting the flop for value - bet as much as you think will get called obv.

If your flop bets in 3bet pots are getting called more than half the time just stop making them when you're bluffing. Oftentimes I'll 3bet AK and whiff the flop - then check the flop and villain will slowplay his KK or whatever and check behind and I spike an Ace on the turn, when that happens I can almost always get enough value on the turn river to make up for the value I "missed" on the flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I very rarely 3bet (playing 25NL) and they keep calling me even when I do 3bet with my big hands.

[Check_The_Nuts]

wow this thread went from downright terrible to great fast. I really like freelancers article on 3betting/check raising turn light/double barrelling. I basically agree with everything, but I don't play 3bet pots as well as freelancer (and don't understand 3bet theory nearly as well as the other concepts).

I have check raised the turn light/with air against mostly TAGs and one over-aggro donkey and its worked well for me.

Recently at UB I had a guy at 25NL 3betting me light, his stats were 17/13/4 or something, and he was on my immediate left. Wow, is it ever weird adjusting. I'll give some example hands now and see what you think:

First hand, I raise button with AK, tag 3bets, I shove, tag calls with AK. Ok standard.

I raise again later, TAG 3bets, I fold. This happens one more time at least, so that I'm about 90% sure this guy is 3-balling me with junk+decent hands.

I raise in MP, TAG 3bets to $4, I call with KJ. Flop comes Q92. I check, TAG overbets $10, I shove $21. Good?

Last hand he called with A3s. I raise button, TAG calls (weird?!?). Flop T23, tag donks I call. Turn blank 7 or something, TAG shoves, I fold 66.

I raise QQ UTG, Tag 3bets, I shove. With the history at this point I think I [censored] this one up. Later on it would be ideal.

I raise 22 UTG, TAG 3bets UTG+1 to $4, I fold. Mistake yes?

I raise A9s UTG, TAG 3bets (at least 3rd time he's done this, maybe 4th) UTG+1, I shove, TAG folds.

There were also a couple times I opened AQ-like hands, he 3balled, I shoved, especially when it was evident I was shoving a fairly wide range preflop. I never got a hand like 99-JJ, which i think are slightly diff. than QQ-AA/AQ+/suited Aces (which is basically my bighand/bluff hand push range)....Not sure how to play these hands with me shoving so much pre.

The check raise thing, I've done it many times it seems. Here's (I think) a good example of it. Even though my hand is good here 70-80% of the time.

At the time I was playing straight forward. I had let the tag steal relentlessly. Didn't make any moves, wasn't caugth bluffing, etc. Probably fairly tight stats of 17/15/3 or somethin.

TAG(22/18/3) opens CO (Attention to steal high, at least 30%), I call in BB with KQo.

Flop: Qc2c3d
I check, TAG cbets 4/5, I call
Turn: 7h
I check, TAG bets 4/5, I move in, tag WTF's chat and folds.

I check raised here instead of lead/calling or somethign like that because I figured he'd put me on TT/99/JJ/88. He seemed like the type capable of double barreling a draw, and if I just called he would play the river near perfect versus me. The key for me is altho I think calling has EV, raising also does because he has air so often in this spot.

Feel free to argue ^^ hand. I doubt its that clear cut, and thats why I chose it. I have some blind on blind examples too, but meh...

[prodonkey]

How is a 17/13 3 betting you so much lol. It can be very profitable if you adjust correctly and maybe hit a hand here and there. It can be a HUGE PITA if you are missing every flop though.

I play a few of your hands differently. If someone is constantly doing this to me I'll quit raising the really small pairs since I don't really want to play 3 bet pots oop with them. I might limp a few times and see what he does. Limp reraise works well too since nobody does that without AA right? Depending on stack sizes, if the guy is a constant 3 bettor, I'll just start raising hands that I'm willing to 4 bet him with. I like the QQ shove if you've shoved on him a few times.

[kazana]

A bit late to chime in, but on the topic of 3-betting rather generously:
I've been fiddling around with that for a bit during my last few k hands. The results aren't really saying much (sample size), but so far it seems that it can be used to your advantage.

I actually like to do it more liberally when I just sat down. During that stretch people give me lots of respect when I 3-bet, so I can push out a few better hands preflop, and usually take down a few pots postflop.

Once they start to realize that it's pretty unlikely that I got dealt QQ+/AK plenty of times during the first few orbits, and they start calling more often, I switch back to good ol' vanilla TAG and enjoy seeing them calling me down with questionable hands. Of course, my FE has been stunted a bit then, so I just need to control my urge to cbet constantly.

On average, I'll sit with around 10-20% more chips by the time they start to adapt, so I've got a nice head start.

[Freelancer]

@matrix Yeah I forgot to include that 1/2 pot sized bet in raised pots is rarely correct, I always cbet slightly above half pot in 3bet pots for the reasons you gave. Also your probably correct that 3betting light isn't needed for a long time, much more important is a solid preflop/postflop game. 3betting light becomes WAY more valuable if the opposition is getting better, basically its a spectrum from;
bad ----- decent ------ very good
Where its very profitable to 3bet the decent players and marginally profitable against the very good players and plain not needed against the bad players. The higher you get the more your general opposition populace floats towards the 'decent but not great' center and this is where 3betting shines.
And yeah people play VERY basic postflop or VERY maniacal in 3bet pots, not many people can strike a proper balance.

@check_the_nuts
Hand 1; Meh whatever and SOOOO standard /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Hand 2; Meh should be what you should usually do, calling and playing poker postflop shouldn't be done very often unless you have rock solid reads on villain.
hand 3; I don't like the preflop call all that much, I like it more if your IP than OOP. Also I prefer calling with suited connectors, they flop draws so when you shove the flop you atleast have some equity when called. As I said before IMHO; folding+tightening up&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;calling/4betting (effectively the same, one you make the move preflop the other postflop).
Hand 4; If a light 3bettor calls in the blinds you can be almost certain its a small PP. So when he donks its either a small PP going for 'I don't know wtf to do so I'll just donk' or a set, when they donk into me the first time like this I generally just fold on the flop. As played I don't mind it either...
Hand 5; Thats a nice preflop shoving range and fairly difficult to counter with 100bb's (obviously changes when you get deeper) for the light 3bettor, if he's smart he'll tightens up his 3bet range when he realizes your shoving light. 99-JJ your probably better of calling than shoving unless there's some really crazy history going on (him calling with small-medium PP's), you'll be in some tough situations postflop though so be prepared for that.
Hand 6; I don't mind it all that much, but I prefer calling and playing poker postflop. He has junk A LOT so you might as well let him have the lead and allow him to bluff of more of his stack postflop. Be prepared to felt on low card flops though (kinda sucks but light 3betters have a habit of double barrel shoving it seems).
Hand 7; There's a BIG difference between 3betting a UTG raise and a LP raise (his range should be more centered towards premium hands), the fold is totally fine if your not deep. Once you get towards 150bb's+ you can start mixing in calling occasionally...
Hand 8; Don't mind it, but prefer if its with a LP open+3bet. Although this guy doesn't seem to care about what position you raise from...
Hand 9; I don't like the preflop call, I 3bet or fold here. (usually 3betting if he opens up LP often)
Postflop I generall call the turn again, no point in bluffing air/draws (if all draws miss and tag is a bit overagressive you can also call the third barrel, although he'll check behind A LOT). I like it more if he has a high double barrel frequincy and you do it with air/draw, basically your turning your solid hand into a bluff because you won't be called by worse (seriously doubt he calls with a draw/QJ or something).
I'm more talking about you raise preflop and get called by the button;
Flop 88J rainbow
You cbet he calls
Turn; blank
You check
he bets
And you c/r him out of his seat.

Note I didn't include my hand because it isn't extremely relevant...


Also a preflop move I absolute LOVE but I only get to use occasionally;
The situation;
Loose LP raiser, light 3bettor in the sb.
Your dealt xx in the bb.
Loose LP raiser raises as usual.
Light 3bettor 3bets him from the sb.
You 4bet them from the bb.
They both proceed to fold everything but QQ+ and occasionally call with JJ/AK (a light 3bettors range is WAY WAY WAY wider than that).

[ama0330]

IMO theres a difference between rolling with the game, and deliberately sitting there at the start of the session going "Yep, I'ma be a tricky little bastard today!"

I dont think that the second attitude is going to make you any money at uNL or anywhere really. But the first one is really profitable. You basically weigh the facts you know in your head up against one another, cycle through your options, and act accordingly. For example last night I dont remember the hand exactly but I double barreled a guy who I figured to have a mid pair on an AKx flop (I had nothing) and he folded. I distinctly remember my thought process:

1. I have no hand, its irrelevant. Bet flop. He calls. What does he have?
2. No raise preflop. A and K on the board. Call is Ax,Kx,22+,BD Flush, BDstraight. Draws hit? No.
3. What does he need to call here? A or K only. My image is good. He is pretty passive post. Check AF (&lt;1).
4. What percentage of his range is A/K? Small part.
5. I feel like he wants to fold here. Bet 3/4.
6. He folds ship monies.

Kinda flimsy example, but my point is that "high stakes moves" dont really matter, what matters is making a decision which you believe to be correct when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support it. If you are just like HEY IMA DOUBLE BARREL THIS CLOWN HEY WTF HE CRAI HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE OMFG WHAT A DONKEY then you're probably going about the "making moves" thing the wrong way.

The obvious follow on here is that its pretty rare for the planets to align in such a way that you'll feel like "yeah, this is a good spot" at uNL, because players really are terrible. But that doesnt mean it wont happen at all.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO theres a difference between rolling with the game, and deliberately sitting there at the start of the session going "Yep, I'ma be a tricky little bastard today!"

I dont think that the second attitude is going to make you any money at uNL or anywhere really. But the first one is really profitable. You basically weigh the facts you know in your head up against one another, cycle through your options, and act accordingly. For example last night I dont remember the hand exactly but I double barreled a guy who I figured to have a mid pair on an AKx flop (I had nothing) and he folded. I distinctly remember my thought process:

1. I have no hand, its irrelevant. Bet flop. He calls. What does he have?
2. No raise preflop. A and K on the board. Call is Ax,Kx,22+,BD Flush, BDstraight. Draws hit? No.
3. What does he need to call here? A or K only. My image is good. He is pretty passive post. Check AF (&lt;1).
4. What percentage of his range is A/K? Small part.
5. I feel like he wants to fold here. Bet 3/4.
6. He folds ship monies.

Kinda flimsy example, but my point is that "high stakes moves" dont really matter, what matters is making a decision which you believe to be correct when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support it. If you are just like HEY IMA DOUBLE BARREL THIS CLOWN HEY WTF HE CRAI HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE OMFG WHAT A DONKEY then you're probably going about the "making moves" thing the wrong way.

The obvious follow on here is that its pretty rare for the planets to align in such a way that you'll feel like "yeah, this is a good spot" at uNL, because players really are terrible. But that doesnt mean it wont happen at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
Everything I said in the posts above is at uNL one of those things that happens ones in a blue moon, but I have a ton of these tricks in my bag so I tend to pull of a lot of 'moves' in general even though its just reacting to a certain situation.
Except 3betting, you can usually find a sweet target on your right to 3bet at one of your tables...

Its not bad practice though to go a few tables lower than what your used to and just allow yourself to go nuts with moves and bluffing in general (+being a preflop manaic) helps a lot with handreading. This is mostly for ssnl since the games are so radically different at nl5/nl10 than at nl50...

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
..deliberately sitting there at the start of the session going "Yep, I'ma be a tricky little bastard today!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I say that every day /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I agree tho - playing the situations that evolve and the players at your tables &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "trying to play like a LAG this session"

Here's something you might wanna stick a post-it-note reminder about..

Before you start your session - read up on the forums - or a book or w/e - look through play recently and try to work in one extra trick or move or something that you don't do much of - or don't do very well yet.

e.g. "3betting TAGs light who open OTB with wide ranges" (could be anything at all - just using 3betting light as an example)

read up on what the advice is for making this play and write it on your note.

so for 3betting light we'd note.

I NEED READS
20/10 TAG opens CO/OTB ~4BB - no limpers
I am OOP
NOT WITH DOMINATED HANDS LIKE KJ QJs (sc's are goot)
etc

then while you're playing from time to time you'll spot openings that match up to your requirements for making this move. So make it.

note what happens - after you finish the session look over the hands you tried this out in and review - post interesting spots that happened cos of it - or spots where you feel like /images/graemlins/confused.gif gradually you can work out the kinks and before long you feel comforatble where when and how to pull this move - then repeat with a new move and keep adding things to your game a piece at a time.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
..deliberately sitting there at the start of the session going "Yep, I'ma be a tricky little bastard today!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I say that every day /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I agree tho - playing the situations that evolve and the players at your tables &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; "trying to play like a LAG this session"

Here's something you might wanna stick a post-it-note reminder about..

Before you start your session - read up on the forums - or a book or w/e - look through play recently and try to work in one extra trick or move or something that you don't do much of - or don't do very well yet.

e.g. "3betting TAGs light who open OTB with wide ranges" (could be anything at all - just using 3betting light as an example)

read up on what the advice is for making this play and write it on your note.

so for 3betting light we'd note.

I NEED READS
20/10 TAG opens CO/OTB ~4BB - no limpers
I am OOP
NOT WITH DOMINATED HANDS LIKE KJ QJs (sc's are goot)
etc

then while you're playing from time to time you'll spot openings that match up to your requirements for making this move. So make it.

note what happens - after you finish the session look over the hands you tried this out in and review - post interesting spots that happened cos of it - or spots where you feel like /images/graemlins/confused.gif gradually you can work out the kinks and before long you feel comforatble where when and how to pull this move - then repeat with a new move and keep adding things to your game a piece at a time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome idea matrix, I never tried it (pretty good memory when it comes to cards) but I might in the future.

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]

hand 3; I don't like the preflop call all that much, I like it more if your IP than OOP. Also I prefer calling with suited connectors, they flop draws so when you shove the flop you atleast have some equity when called. As I said before IMHO; folding+tightening up&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;calling/4betting (effectively the same, one you make the move preflop the other postflop).

[/ QUOTE ]

Domination isn't a problem when he 3balls &gt;60% of my opens. He's doing this with suited aces, complete garbage, big hands, trap hands, pocket pairs, etc. IMO I'm looking for hands that hit the flop a lot with TPGK or whatever, cause this is all I need to get it in vs. this crazy tag/lag. If I had continued to take this approach I would have had to tighten my range and start calling when he 3balls me. Instead I just took the easier route of making a fairly wide push range.

One thing you should notice though, is that this guy constantly challenged me for my stack...

edit: oh on that check raise turn hand. The TAG had bet enough of his stack that we had about a pot sized bet (maybe slightly more) on the river. Because of this I didn't wanna just call, even though I am turning my hand into a complete bluff (there is a small chance he'll fold AQ, like ~10%).

[derosnec]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($29.40)
MP ($24.30)
CO ($30.40)
Button ($55.15)
SB ($39.05)
Hero ($24)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5.25</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: $6.35

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Hero wins $6.35. </font>

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($29.50)
UTG ($42.20)
Button ($26.60)
SB ($27.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: $5.10

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($36.40)
Hero ($27.15)
BB ($25.45)
UTG ($25.95)
MP ($24.25)
CO ($17.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5.1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $6.35


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($13.60)
MP ($45.25)
Button ($33.25)
SB ($8.40)
Hero ($27.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.75</font>, MP folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $6.35

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($15.90)
UTG ($31.05)
Button ($25.70)
Hero ($21.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.85</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: $6.10

and so on

[We Major]

I've run at a 10BB/100 winrate over my first 20k hands of 25NL by selectively employing these tactics. Against tough players occassionally I won't CBet, I'll 3Bet light as it puts a lot of pressure on your opponents, induces them to make larger mistakes, and gets them to telegraph their hands.

There are times when both of you have AK, AQ, AJ type hands, you fire a CBet on a blank flop and he calls and the turn misses and you know he has an AX hand. These are times I'll fire a second barrel.

The key is to pick your spots well.

You can also setup plays pretty easily. There's times I'll fold to a CBet, fold to a CBet, then the next time they do it I'll float it. So, 1/3rd of the time you're going to have a hand and on the 2/3ds of the time you don't have a hand that they expect to take down with the CBet you float and take down 1/3rd of those. There's also times you have a draw and checkraise them and take it down. I'll also wait until the pots are larger to make this move.

Lately I've been adding in river check raise bluffs and all ins with air after showing down a big hand with an all in bet.

[Sean Fraley]

I've not even read half of today's responses yet, and this has already turned into the best examination of variations on c-betting that I have ever seen in this forum. One of the mods should make a "just the good stuff" version of this and sticky it.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]


and so on

[/ QUOTE ]

derosnec:

what kind of frequency are you 3betting these people with and do you usually pick sc's to do it with?

[prodonkey]

Full Tilt Poker
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
MP: $24.65
CO: $34.80
BTN: $33.90
Hero (SB): $29.6
BB: $24.75
UTG: $49.65

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($0.35, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.70</font>, BB calls $0.45

<font color="black">Flop:</font> A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($1.4, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $3</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, BB folds
Uncalled bet of $5 returned to Hero


While a lot of the thread has been about 3 betting preflop.. here is a post flop 3 bet. The guy in the bb is 15/11. This is some 3rd level thinking and seemed like a pretty easy 3 bet to me. He's thinking well maybe he doesn't have an ace so I can steal this pot from him. While I'm thinking if he had an ace he would have 3 bet me preflop with anything decent, so he has a hand that can't stand much heat.

[derosnec]

i usually 3bet tags with non-dominated hands (total crap hands or SCs). so not sure what frequency that is, but it works out that it is not too frequent, but frequent enough to be profitable and non-maniac-ish.

[Marshall28]

i only read the first few responses, so if im repeating something someone already said, sorry ...

the types of plays you are talking about arent exactly "high stakes plays" ... they are used at every level by people who know what they are doing. by targetting random situations to 3bet more often and fire a second barrel, you are going to lose a lot of money. in order to use these tools effectively, you have to know when it is the right situation to do so. knowing when its a good time to do these things comes with lots and lots of experience. you cant just say "ok im gonna start 3betting more" and do it.

[derosnec]

exactly. i do it against tags only. not against nits or donks.

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
i only read the first few responses, so if im repeating something someone already said, sorry ...

the types of plays you are talking about arent exactly "high stakes plays" ... they are used at every level by people who know what they are doing. by targetting random situations to 3bet more often and fire a second barrel, you are going to lose a lot of money. in order to use these tools effectively, you have to know when it is the right situation to do so. knowing when its a good time to do these things comes with lots and lots of experience. you cant just say "ok im gonna start 3betting more" and do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations on repeating what others have said.. post count +1

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Domination isn't a problem when he 3balls &gt;60% of my opens. He's doing this with suited aces, complete garbage, big hands, trap hands, pocket pairs, etc. IMO I'm looking for hands that hit the flop a lot with TPGK or whatever, cause this is all I need to get it in vs. this crazy tag/lag. If I had continued to take this approach I would have had to tighten my range and start calling when he 3balls me. Instead I just took the easier route of making a fairly wide push range.

One thing you should notice though, is that this guy constantly challenged me for my stack...

edit: oh on that check raise turn hand. The TAG had bet enough of his stack that we had about a pot sized bet (maybe slightly more) on the river. Because of this I didn't wanna just call, even though I am turning my hand into a complete bluff (there is a small chance he'll fold AQ, like ~10%).


[/ QUOTE ]
This guy sounds a lot more maniacal in 3bet pots than he's good, which means those marginal calls with QK are a bit better. I still don't like it that much because I'd rather be IP than oop, but I guess you can't pick your position all the time. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
The biggest problem I have about calling with QK is that your going to miss 2/3 times and your basically forced to fold. With sc's you can also flop draws+pairs (essentially also draws against overcards) so you can make a move way more often on the flop with more equity if you get called by a overpair. With QK if villain isn't crazy you'll rarely get called by a better hand if you get it in on the flop/turn, villain seems crazy though so calling isn't that bad. I usually LOVE to see QK type of hands at showdown, it means villain is starting to adapt which usually means he's starting to spew postflop...

The check raise hand I still don't like your reasoning, your now basically losing your stack against a hand that beats you and everything you beat folds. Your better of c/c the turn and c/c the river than c/rAI on the turn...
This is a important concept to get right, you usually (not always but most of the time) don't want to turn your hand into a bluff. There are a few exceptions but in general if you beat most of his range (which I agree you are beating) but he folds everything you beat when you raise than you should call in 99% of the situations. If there is no advantage to turning your hand into a bluff why are you doing it? And no just because he folds AQ occasionally and you don't have a tough a river decision isn't a good enough reason. /images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
While a lot of the thread has been about 3 betting preflop.. here is a post flop 3 bet. The guy in the bb is 15/11. This is some 3rd level thinking and seemed like a pretty easy 3 bet to me. He's thinking well maybe he doesn't have an ace so I can steal this pot from him. While I'm thinking if he had an ace he would have 3 bet me preflop with anything decent, so he has a hand that can't stand much heat.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah the flop 3bet on paired/raggie boards is one of the things I forgot, best used (as usuall) against agressive regulars. This also precludes the flop 4bet move for villain although thats probably a bit to advanced...

[Miraculix]

[ QUOTE ]


Recently at UB I had a guy at 25NL 3betting me light, his stats were 17/13/4 or something, and he was on my immediate left. Wow, is it ever weird adjusting. I'll give some example hands now and see what you think:

First hand, I raise button with AK, tag 3bets, I shove, tag calls with AK. Ok standard.



[/ QUOTE ]

Hi.

Is this play really +EV? I mean AK is not a made hand, so you´re a dog to any PP here, right? Do you make this play just to maintain table image, or is it +EV?
OK. AK should be played aggressively, but push it??

Please explain.

A bit off topic but the again, maybe not??
BTW, GREAT THREAD.

// M

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

Hi.

Is this play really +EV? I mean AK is not a made hand, so you´re a dog to any PP here, right? Do you make this play just to maintain table image, or is it +EV?
OK. AK should be played aggressively, but push it??

Please explain.

A bit off topic but the again, maybe not??
BTW, GREAT THREAD.

// M

[/ QUOTE ]


If villians range is only pocketpairs, then you are right, it is -EV, but a slightly wider range than that and shoving AK becomes +EV (and the assumtion is, that you will encounter AQ and worse often enough, so that it is +EV ... you of course have to have the bankroll to stand the flux of coinflipping a lot)

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hi.

Is this play really +EV? I mean AK is not a made hand, so you´re a dog to any PP here, right? Do you make this play just to maintain table image, or is it +EV?
OK. AK should be played aggressively, but push it??

Please explain.

A bit off topic but the again, maybe not??
BTW, GREAT THREAD.

// M

[/ QUOTE ]


If villians range is only pocketpairs, then you are right, it is -EV, but a slightly wider range than that and shoving AK becomes +EV (and the assumtion is, that you will encounter AQ and worse often enough, so that it is +EV ... you of course have to have the bankroll to stand the flux of coinflipping a lot)

[/ QUOTE ]
Also, and this is key imo, AK wants to see all 5 board cards, simply because while we're roughly a flip vs pairs of QQ- on the flop, we're already a 3-1 dog on a missed flop against that same range.

[creamfillin]

Not to mention the fold equity we get everytime villain folds his tens and jacks we win his threebet

[Freelancer]

yeah, kinda sucks if you get snapcalled by kings (meh happened to me today) but its all part of the game...

Shoving is definitley +ev against anybody with a reasonably wide range, TT+ AQ+ is already sufficient. Against a light 3bettor shoving is mandatory and without thinking about it, at 200nl I consider folding AK preflop a big laydown lol...

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
The check raise hand I still don't like your reasoning, your now basically losing your stack against a hand that beats you and everything you beat folds. Your better of c/c the turn and c/c the river than c/rAI on the turn...
This is a important concept to get right, you usually (not always but most of the time) don't want to turn your hand into a bluff. There are a few exceptions but in general if you beat most of his range (which I agree you are beating) but he folds everything you beat when you raise than you should call in 99% of the situations. If there is no advantage to turning your hand into a bluff why are you doing it? And no just because he folds AQ occasionally and you don't have a tough a river decision isn't a good enough reason. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with just calling the turn is there were some gutshots+a flushdraw on the board, and villian didn't have enough back to make him want to call all in on the river with worse, and he would be very unlikely to bluff the river for a pot sized bet. If stacks were deeper/or the board was dry, I would have played it like you said. He also didn't seem like the type to be so spewy he would bluff push the river with a busted draw (which would be terrible).

edit: Yeah the AK hand isn't exactly standard. But I have a big roll for 25NL and will push small edges like this (and even smaller). Its also good for table image. It also makes people not want to repop hands like 88/99/TT that have a lot of value, but you turn them into bluffs if the guy is 4balling AK/JJ+

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The check raise hand I still don't like your reasoning, your now basically losing your stack against a hand that beats you and everything you beat folds. Your better of c/c the turn and c/c the river than c/rAI on the turn...
This is a important concept to get right, you usually (not always but most of the time) don't want to turn your hand into a bluff. There are a few exceptions but in general if you beat most of his range (which I agree you are beating) but he folds everything you beat when you raise than you should call in 99% of the situations. If there is no advantage to turning your hand into a bluff why are you doing it? And no just because he folds AQ occasionally and you don't have a tough a river decision isn't a good enough reason. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with just calling the turn is there were some gutshots+a flushdraw on the board, and villian didn't have enough back to make him want to call all in on the river with worse, and he would be very unlikely to bluff the river for a pot sized bet. If stacks were deeper/or the board was dry, I would have played it like you said. He also didn't seem like the type to be so spewy he would bluff push the river with a busted draw (which would be terrible).

edit: Yeah the AK hand isn't exactly standard. But I have a big roll for 25NL and will push small edges like this (and even smaller). Its also good for table image. It also makes people not want to repop hands like 88/99/TT that have a lot of value, but you turn them into bluffs if the guy is 4balling AK/JJ+

[/ QUOTE ]
So by that reasoning you should c/f the river...
I still don't see a reason to c/rAI, its probably still +ev but its more +++ev to call and c/f the river...