AK hand (25 NL)

[evazan]

Villain is 10.5/.4/1.8 over 56 hands. Hasn't been out of line yet.

Villain has 35 dollars and I have him covered.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (9 players) HERO is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="#cc0000">HERO raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($5.25, 5 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $4.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">HERO ???</font>


I really hated this position and couldn't think of the correct play. Is just folding here being too much of a nit because I can't pick out a hand in villains range that he will bet into 4 people on that flop?

[CaptUnlucky]

ummm... don't fold.

I would probably raise and call a push here. He could be betting a draw, a weaker ace, etc. I doubt he cold calls with a weak hand like a4 or q4, and he would most likely raise QQ, and probably AQ (although that may not be true).

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
ummm... don't fold.

I would probably raise and call a push here. He could be betting a draw, a weaker ace, etc. I doubt he cold calls with a weak hand like a4 or q4, and he would most likely raise QQ, and probably AQ (although that may not be true).

[/ QUOTE ]

I would play AQ-AT (maybe AKo because of his position) this way and I am not nearly as nitty as SB. 44 is also a posibility, and with all the callers in front of him I can see a call from the SB with A4s (or other suited aces). 56 hands isn't a huge read either and he could have just been on a cold deck.

To OP: I really want to raise here to push out the rest of the field but I think we really need to consider the fact we may be behind and want to keep the pot as small as we can if we are going for a WA/WB line. I like a call and see how the rest of the field reacts. Then I play a WA/WB line because we may be against another suited ace or a Q+draw. If the draws start comming in, or SB doesn't slow down, or the field behind gets squirrely. Then I think I can let this go. I'm just not ready to fold it yet.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

THIS MAY BE BAD ADVICE, I JUST STARTED PLAYING CASH GAMES

At NL 25 this is a weak ace trying to protect his hand from a flush 80% of the time. Most 25NL players would check/raise 44 or AQ here (SLOWPLAY SYNDROME) since there is so many to the flop, so I think youre way ahead. I would reraise to 14ish and call a push.

[Oracle]

I make a big raise here and call a push. This board is way too drawy to just call. Folding &gt; calling IMO.

[evazan]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS MAY BE BAD ADVICE, I JUST STARTED PLAYING CASH GAMES

At NL 25 this is a weak ace trying to protect his hand from a flush 80% of the time. Most 25NL players would check/raise 44 or AQ here (SLOWPLAY SYNDROME) since there is so many to the flop, so I think youre way ahead. I would reraise to 14ish and call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be one way to interpret this but villains vpip is 10, its over a small sample but I still have to consider it so I doubt hes calling with a weak ace. I interpret this bet into 4 opponents as a bet that wants action and he can expect to get it on this flop. I think he either has a combo draw and I'm 50/50 or I'm beat and with 3 people left to act behind me I like a fold.

That analysis is all in hind sight as I didn't fold the hand. I made a smallish raise to 10 dollars and villain pushed. HERO???

[bsheck]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS MAY BE BAD ADVICE, I JUST STARTED PLAYING CASH GAMES

At NL 25 this is a weak ace trying to protect his hand from a flush 80% of the time. Most 25NL players would check/raise 44 or AQ here (SLOWPLAY SYNDROME) since there is so many to the flop, so I think youre way ahead. I would reraise to 14ish and call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are spot on. This kind of situation is discussed in NLHTAP and it says that when a player bets strong into multiple opponents, he will typically have a good, but not great hand. SB is basically saying: I don't mind a call or two, I don't want everyone to call, and it wouldn't be so bad to take down this pot right now. This is basically in line with a weaker ace protecting against a flush draw.

[Oracle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THIS MAY BE BAD ADVICE, I JUST STARTED PLAYING CASH GAMES

At NL 25 this is a weak ace trying to protect his hand from a flush 80% of the time. Most 25NL players would check/raise 44 or AQ here (SLOWPLAY SYNDROME) since there is so many to the flop, so I think youre way ahead. I would reraise to 14ish and call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be one way to interpret this but villains vpip is 10, its over a small sample but I still have to consider it so I doubt hes calling with a weak ace. I interpret this bet into 4 opponents as a bet that wants action and he can expect to get it on this flop. I think he either has a combo draw and I'm 50/50 or I'm beat and with 3 people left to act behind me I like a fold.

That analysis is all in hind sight as I didn't fold the hand. I made a smallish raise to 10 dollars and villain pushed. HERO???

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold against this opponent.

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS MAY BE BAD ADVICE, I JUST STARTED PLAYING CASH GAMES

At NL 25 this is a weak ace trying to protect his hand from a flush 80% of the time. Most 25NL players would check/raise 44 or AQ here (SLOWPLAY SYNDROME) since there is so many to the flop, so I think youre way ahead. I would reraise to 14ish and call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 10.5/.4/1.8 over 56 hands. Hasn't been out of line yet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Going on this kind of a read I don't think villain is in the category of slowplay syndrome but as I said 56 hands isn't much to go on. Though I do agree that it is a good chance it's a weak Ace taking a stab which is why I want to go to a WA/WB line with them (assuming the field behind me doesn't get rowdy).

Any reasonable re-raise pretty well commits us to this pot whether villain or someone else in this field pushes. Which allows them to play their hands perfectly. If they push over they have us beat or at best we're 50/50 but we are locked into a call.

As others have said folding may even be better then calling but I think raising is really the worst option.

[Foodchain]

I would call and fold against a big bet if a spade falls on the turn. If not I call all the way, but try to control pot size.

[Oracle]

We're pretty deep at about 150bb. I think we can get away if we raise and someone pushes.

[TheDespot]

I like raising pre-flop a little more here too. This is what typically happens: you get one caller, then another, and then everyone acting afterwards feels almost obligated to call with any type of decent hand. I like raising on the basis of position and limpers that have already acted (ex. if I'm on the button and there's been just one limper I'll raise less than if I'm in hijack and there's been three limpers), and I think just standard raising to 4xBB UTG will invite a good number of calls. It seems strange, but I seriously have found that my pre-flop raises are called much less frequently when I pop to $1.25 or $1.50 than $1. As for the rest of the hand, I think calling is the worst move here. Villain means business here, as this is very very unlikely to be a bluff or even a marginal hand, and therefore villain will be firing at the turn if called and probably fires harder than at the flop. If you flat call here you're going to have to put in much more money to get to showdown (and thus you're not really going to be able to control pot size). This is a pretty tough spot, but I'd probably elect for a raise here. However, I would probably fold if villain comes over the top (is this villain who has pretty tight stats really going to push with a low ace or any other worse hand? I don't think it's likely.)

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
We're pretty deep at about 150bb. I think we can get away if we raise and someone pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we raise to 14 (as sugested) the pot will be 23.75. After Villains flop bet they have 29.5 behind. If they push we are getting 53.25:20 or about 2.6:1. So maybe we could lay it down if it's just Villains push.

We don't know the stacks of the rest of the field behind us. If one of them pushes with an even smaller stack it gives us even better odds. I just think a raise more offten then not commits us to this pot and I am not sure I want to do that yet with what info we have. Hence I still advocate a call or could agree with a fold too.

[freedom18]

i awlays raise these bets, thing that bugs me is how light he is, and 1.8 AF i doubt hes charging at a flush, I think we can repop this to 15 and be done with the hand after that because anything that calls that or does anything with it has us beat. If he takes awhile to call or act I think u can put him on the flush draw or weaker ace, so the turn card will be hard decision too since we don't want a big pot. This is why you need reads to know what he does with these types of hands, you can also fold and wait for such a read to make such a tough decision

[evazan]

My reasoning for the smallish raise was to hurt anyone who may have been drawing and so that I wouldn't be pot committed if villain came over the top. If I simply called I would be given great odds to anyone drawing and villain would most likely fire another large bet on the turn I'd have to call. All in all I think this comes down to whether or not I am willing to play for stacks with 5 people to the flop with nothing but tptk on a draw heavy board and since I wasn't I wish I had just folded this flop and saved myself the 10 dollars because I don't see anyway of getting this hand to the river without being all in.

[TheDespot]

Yeah, you're right about not getting a cheap showdown, so this small raise is just not going to be productive. Either you're getting reraised in which case I think you have to fold, or you're probably going to force the villain to fold a worse hand than yours (weak ace type hand has been suggested, though I think the villain is much stronger here) It does beg one interesting question though: what if the villain just flat calls the small flop raise? This would be rather odd.

[MrMxyztplk]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call and fold against a big bet if a spade falls on the turn. If not I call all the way, but try to control pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

I likie.

[eigenvalue]

[ QUOTE ]
ummm... don't fold.

I would probably raise and call a push here. He could be betting a draw, a weaker ace, etc. I doubt he cold calls with a weak hand like a4 or q4, and he would most likely raise QQ, and probably AQ (although that may not be true).

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible. With what hand will he start to bet into 4 players? Do you think with AJ or AT? This is at least a two pair hand or a flush draw with a gutshot straight draw. We are in a race at best, we are squeezed at the moment, we are facing a situation of reversed implied odds. Get rid of your cards and be proud of a good laydown!