Am I a NIT???

[BevillTheDevil]

Villian a huge LAG at 61/23/2.08 after 90 hands...i usually find it easy to get AI w/ JJ against such a player but him pushing 240ish BBs wasnt sure??

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $9.75
UTG+1: $8.25
CO: $4.80
Button: $58.73
Hero: $71.55
BB: $22.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.6</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $58.73</font>, Hero ?

[and12006]

Go with your read and call you'll be ahead more times then not.

[Sir Winalot]

This looks like a super-easy fold 250bb deep unless you have a stone cold read that he's a bluffhappy retard. Even then I would consider calling quite marginal.

[avfletch]

I'd let this one go. Unless you know something about his 4bet/pushing habits then it's a common trap to fall into to let someone's vpip/pfr stats convince you that such a call is +EV when in fact they're just doing this with AA/KK and letting their table image convince you to call.

[holyfield5]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a super-easy fold 250bb deep unless you have a stone cold read that he's a bluffhappy retard. Even then I would consider calling quite marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

[orange]

folding is goot. whats your play with QQ?

[OrBit]

its real possible that you might be up against ak or aq or not likely but possibly kq, all of them would be a coinflip as well. he might be doing it with TT but that would probably be the only logical hand he was doing it with. if he's not a complete moron i would fold here.

[payoff wizard]

Even a moron can be dealt aces, and many a moron will play them like this. Fold, because its a coinflip at best and a massacre at worst.

I fold JJ and QQ here. Don`t like to coinflip here. Sucks to have this maniac on your right. Stick around and find a better spot to take his chips.

[Vyse]

I never ever call big all in pushes PF with QQ, JJ, AK. I've learned it's huge -EV.

[MrBerlin]

are kings an easy call in this situation if villain is a little bit tighter (40-50 vpip)? i had exactly the same situation with kings.
i would fold it because of the deep stacks and i don't think that someone puts over two stacks at risk with AK, QQ or JJ, which are the only hands i beat.

[BishopsFinger]

kk and aa are standard calls but anything worse im letting go here. too deep to risk it.

[MortenTA]

easy fold - this is a donk move no matter his holding. You will get better chances to stack him than this

[Archon_Wing]

I am a super nitto. With 240 bb, I don't think I would call with anything other than AA.

[VPIP100]

There is only 1 easy answer:

You think you beat his range AND you don't mind the variance that goes with it? Then call.

If you have any doubt at all, fold. Saves you a big tilt if he has K6s and the river is a K.

[ben wb]

I'm folding here too, if he'd been pushing all in constantly then I'd definitely call but those stats over that many hands aren't enough to make me call on their own.

[BevillTheDevil]

ok i folded...says he had AJ (i wanta shoot myself!) but what if he continues to do this a few times do you then call with JJ?? QQ would be close but i think i could find a fold in the same situation but im sure i would def call if he continued to push into me. I may sound like a complete noob but wanted to check myself as ive been gettin pwned with AK lately...
i look to get AI pf when villians:
~50BB deep w/ TT+,AQ(sometimes),AK
~50-100BB w/ JJ+, AK, AQ (sometimes)
~100-150BB w/ QQ+, JJ and AK (sometimes)
~150BB+ w/ KK+, QQ(sometimes)

of course read dependent but assuming against typical/average micro villian...does this sound about right?? the sometimes are against the absolute donks or with a real good read.

[thac]

Grunch,

Stop looking at it in terms of how deep you are.. you think he's an idiot and you're most likely ahead of his range. How many times has he shoved like this? If it's more than once, I definitely call because I think Ax down to T is in his range, along with KQ as well as TT-88.

If he's done this more than once, call; if he hasn't, fold.

[the_muppeteer]

For me table history depends a little too, have you raised his minraises a lot etc. But generally this is a easy fold, if he has AQ+ you're at best ~50% to win the pot.. I don't like coinflips for 240BBs

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like coinflips for 240BBs

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hate this statement.

[the_muppeteer]

hehe, ofcourse I sometimes do coinflips when deep. But against villians like this you can get your money in with much better odds..

[thac]

Unless he busts first..

[BevillTheDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch,

Stop looking at it in terms of how deep you are.. you think he's an idiot and you're most likely ahead of his range. How many times has he shoved like this? If it's more than once, I definitely call because I think Ax down to T is in his range, along with KQ as well as TT-88.

If he's done this more than once, call; if he hasn't, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


i agree we are probably ahead of his range and if he does this often then i can find a call.

so when do you, if ever, look at it in terms of how deep you are?? say for instance you have JJ raise, same villian and he is 50-100ish BBs deep and pushs into you or say he is 150+ BBs deep same scenario you play the same?? maybe im just a nit w/ my monies but i take stack depth into consideration in moments like this (a leak??)

[cubase]

I've read all the posts and I'll give you my two cents.

First I wouldn't call him a maniac. His AF isn't that high, and while he's seeing a lot a flops, he's also folding a lot on the flop/turn (or at least he isn't being super aggressive... does he turn into a calling station? Does he call down to the river light?). His PF raising is a little higher than mine (he's probably raising with stuff like KTs frequently, whereas I might do this as a specific play based on the blinds stats), but certainly his raising range is near mine (PPs any position, SC's near button, etc).

I'd be looking for two other important numbers... how often does he go to showdown, and how often does he win? In other words, is he a smart lag? When the pots get big, does he have the goods? If he's playing smallball with light holdings fine, but is he also playing big pots with small hands?

Pokey points this out in one of his great posts... LAG pre-flop doesn't necessarily mean LAG post-flop. He breaks player types into both pre and post flop play.

Finally, if you are convinved he is an agressive maniac (which again, I don't quite believe based on his AF), then you have position on him on every hand except one. Wait for a better spot. Angel Largay (sp?) brings this up in his book. Instead of taking a 52/48 spot where you could lose your dough, tilt, etc... wait for him to blast into you with bets when you are holding the goods and are a strong fav. If he's that bad, the money will come without having to deal with marginal situations.

Also, because he is seeing so many flops, consider raising more than standard when he limps in to isolate him and charge him extra for his pre-flop looseness. In the long run , he will lose a lot of chips calling off your (bigger) raises with his marginal holdings. If your image is indeed that of a nit, most rational folks will be folding to your larger raises (unless they have the goods) but your loose friend will certainly call to see a flop.

My final thought comes from NLHETAP in which Sklansky advises waiting for the LAG to make two HUGE mistakes before tagging him as a poor LAG. He notes that smart LAGs will often make little mistakes (in little pots), but if you see this same LAG only playing in big pots with the goods, he might be trouble.

Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I'm advocating a fold here. He is the only other significant stack at the table, and I want to find my best opportunity to get his stack in. Even with a fairly loose range re-raising range, you are still flipping as other folks have mentioned. I gave him a WIDE range in pokerstove and you are still barely ahead...

Hand 0: 43.526% 42.80% 00.73% 488088312 8278788.00 { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 56.474% 55.75% 00.73% 635748576 8278788.00 { JJ }

[thac]

I really think 2 buyins isn't "deep".. That can be won and lost in a couple hands... if you were say 400bb deep, then I'd fold.. Probably for 300 too.. but 200 isn't really that deep. It's one double-up. I dunno.

[Sigurd]

Fold.
min raise + giant overbet = monster

[ama0330]

Easiest fold ever.