Yet another combodraw hand.

[Wolfram]

Villain has only been sitting for a few orbits, but playing loose and fast. This is
his first 3bet though, and I don't see anything other than a big pair in his range.

Full Tilt Poker
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
5 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
BB: $26.35
UTG: $33.90
CO: $50.20
Hero (BTN): $25.75
SB: $24.65

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 4http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 5http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($0.35, 5 players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.50</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $0.50, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $2.10</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $1.60

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4.8, 2 players)
<font color="red">BB bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif [Jhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif] ($12.8, 2 players)
<font color="red">BB bets $8.75</font>, Hero calls $8.75

<font color="black">River:</font> 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Jhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif [7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif] ($30.3, 2 players)
<font color="red">BB bets all in for $11.75</font>, Hero calls all in for $10.90
Uncalled bet of $0.85 returned to BB

[Desdia01]

Fold preflop, but as played, you were fortunate.

[crushednuts]

Calling a Raise and a reraise w/ a 54 is sort of suspect PF even though you have some money in. Are you calling on the turn for the implied odds?

[Vyse]

Fold PF, raise flop, fold turn

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, but as played, you were fortunate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, go back slowplaying your monster. There must be IQ check before letting people post advice in these forums /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[corsakh]

3bet to a minraise is a waaaay wider range than a high pair.

Preflop is good. If you have a read his on a high pair, you played it well and there is nothing to add. Let him bust himself on an over giving you odds to call and opportunity to fold if you miss.

[losingdonkey]

if you have to play this hand preflop I'd put in for a raise since you're in position. As played, I'd call the flop, but fold the turn. obviously you have to call on the river.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, but as played, you were fortunate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, go back slowplaying your monster. There must be IQ check before letting people post advice in these forums /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he was fortunate? He didn't get the proper odds on every street, and sucked out on the river.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, but as played, you were fortunate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, go back slowplaying your monster. There must be IQ check before letting people post advice in these forums /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he was fortunate? He didn't get the proper odds on every street, and sucked out on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he did not suck out.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]

You don't think he was fortunate? He didn't get the proper odds on every street, and sucked out on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he did not suck out.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I missing something? On the flop 54d is 44.7% to 55.2% v an overpair (TT+).

[venom007]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling a Raise and a reraise w/ a 54 is sort of suspect PF even though you have some money in. Are you calling on the turn for the implied odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, there is no such thing as implied odds when you call an 8.75 bet on the turn and only have 10 bucks left over.

[venom007]

As played please raise flop to 12 with intention of calling a push-- you got a great flop for your weak hand, there is no reason to not want to get it allin on this flop if you're playing 45 for 9 BB's preflop.

[Respekt]

luck, happens... as played easy call rivrr no1 is calling there pre with 4,8 ur at most splitting the pot, nh... good cb, u can easily c/f the turn u are not getting enough implied odds with a bet of 1/3 his stack. and implied odds is what u are relying on here.

[Xanta]

If the villain is playing 'loose and fast' and likely has an overpair, I see no reason to raise this flop when he'll almost certainly shove with an overpair and we'll almost certainly be flipping. I think that you have sick implied odds on the flop, so I'd peel and see if I hit even though its almost a pot sized bet. Your implied odds are basically gone when the turn bricks as he has almost nothing behind, so I give up there.

[Sir Winalot]

The 2nd call preflop is a little marginal, but it should be fine in position against this villain.

I'm not sure about calling flop, but I guess it's fine due to position. I would usually take a more aggressive line though, because if we miss turn our equity advantage is gone and we would have bad stack sizes for turn. Stack sizes aren't perfect but I would consider shoving over his c-bet.

As played on flop, I think calling turn is the worst option. We have to either fold or shove here because we don't really have any implied odds if we hit any of our outs except a 5, most villains are quite hesitant to stack off with 1-card straight(s) on the board.

[orange]

PF isn't really that great vs. an UTG raise. With suited connectors I typically RR or fold (very unconventional advice) but whatever. Second call is marginal. Disregarding PF...

I would fold the turn. I don't think your really getting great odds here. I would also consider shoving the flop.

[Freelancer]

Meh hate preflop and hate the turn.

Fold to the minraise, 45s isn't that great if you don't have the lead. Once he 3bets its an even easier fold...

I don't like the turn either your implied odds aren't that great and the direct odds are shot to hell...

[Wolfram]

A few points:

1. Preflop. Calling the minraise is def. marginal, but... if you don't like to play 45s in position vs a player that is basically playing his hand face up then why play anything except premium hands?

2. FE. There is none. Stop telling me to shove the flop when 99% of the guys range is an overpair and I am currently behind. (I think most 2p2'ers seriously overvalue FE in µlimit).

3. Turn. I am just a hair away from getting direct odds to call (13 outs, 2.54:1 to hit, 2.46:1 pot odds). He only needs to make/call a river bet some of the time to make calling more EV than folding (I give up a lot of equity by folding).

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the turn either your implied odds aren't that great and the direct odds are shot to hell...

[/ QUOTE ]
Start-&gt;Programs-&gt;Accessories-&gt;Calculator

(12.8 + 8.75) / 8.75 = 2.46

46 / 13 - 1 = 2.54

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
A few points:

1. Preflop. Calling the minraise is def. marginal, but... if you don't like to play 45s in position vs a player that is basically playing his hand face up then why play anything except premium hands?

2. FE. There is none. Stop telling me to shove the flop when 99% of the guys range is an overpair and I am currently behind. (I think most 2p2'ers seriously overvalue FE in µlimit).

3. Turn. I am just a hair away from getting direct odds to call (13 outs, 2.54:1 to hit, 2.46:1 pot odds). He only needs to make/call a river bet some of the time to make calling more EV than folding (I give up a lot of equity by folding).

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I think calling the minraise is pretty standard in this spot with 100bb stacks and position.

2) I would usually consider AK a part of his range unless you think there is a specific reason to not think so (after all, it was you playing with him so I can't tell about the table conditions and flow). But assuming AK would be a part of his range we do have a little folding equity here. Though, you are right in that we don't have much FE but luckily we don't need much.

[ QUOTE ]
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5s 3s 6c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d 4d 442 44.65 524 52.93 24 2.42 0.459
Kc Kh 524 52.93 442 44.65 24 2.42 0.541

[/ QUOTE ]
With the potsize and the chanses of him having AK in his range and the chanses that he will fold even a small fraction of his overpairs makes shoving the flop a +EV play imo.

3) I still do think that calling is the worst option on the turn (see first post for reasoning).

[Smilin']

[ QUOTE ]
As played on flop, I think calling turn is the worst option. We have to either fold or shove here because we don't really have any implied odds if we hit any of our outs except a 5, most villains are quite hesitant to stack off with 1-card straight(s) on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this--calling seems best to me. By the turn, it's probably fairly safe to assume Villain has an overpair. Given what's left in the stacks, I think he is quite likely to stack off on any river card. Obviously Hero doesn't put anything more in unless he hits. So there's a little implied odds, which is all that's needed to make calling better than folding.

Raising is clearly worse than calling if he always calls the raise, because then Hero stacks off when he misses too. There might be a little FE on the turn, but I'm guessing that if Villain has an overpair he's not folding for the relatively small amount he has left. So unless Villain has a history of making big laydowns, raising seems worse than calling IMHO.

[Wolfram]

I'd like to address this:
[ QUOTE ]
3) I still do think that calling is the worst option on the turn (see first post for reasoning).

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's your reasoning from the first post:
[ QUOTE ]
As played on flop, I think calling turn is the worst option. We have to either fold or shove here because we don't really have any implied odds if we hit any of our outs except a 5, most villains are quite hesitant to stack off with 1-card straight(s) on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]
We do have some implied odds. Our opponent doesn't need to always call us to give us implied odds. He just needs to do it some of the time. And I think an average villain is not getting away from an overpair when he has this little behind. Even without implied odds, our call is only a very small error mathematically, because we almost have true pot odds to call.

Shoving is absurd imo. He has so little behind, that it would only be a min-raise back to him. After he bets so strongly on both flop and turn our FE is rapidly approaching 0. So all you do is put the rest of your money in when you are almost certainly a dog.

Calling and folding an unimproved river is the best play.

[donkeykong2]

you dont have the odds to call the preflop raise and just hope to hit something. u hit a nearly perfect flop and it was still marginal to continue. on the turn u pay around 9 dollar to win possibly 40 if u hit so this is probably ok. still folding has about the same value. u might push all in on the flop if u think hes able to fold any overpair here.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
you dont have the odds to call the preflop raise and just hope to hit something

[/ QUOTE ]
Wtf? Do you see his stack in there???

I am getting nearly 2:1 to call preflop. I am a 4:1 dog against an overpair and I have position. I only need to make up about $4 to make this a profitable call. I am almost always getting his stack if I flop a straight/trips/boat/whatever.

The flop is nowhere near marginal. I have about 45% equity in the pot and am getting 2:1 pot odds. Folding would be insane. It's just a question of whether I should raise or not, and my feeling and read told me he would almost never fold.

[Jouster777]

I like the turn call.

Villain has AK here &lt;25% of the time and the rest its OPs. We are ahead of AK and villain is very unlikely to triple barrel so if we want to play him for AK we can just check behind on the river.

[donkeykong2]

well u probably should look into some probability stats and i m pretty sure u would realize the call preflop is pretty bad. u need your hand on the flop or turn, because he wont let u draw cheaply. 2 pair on the flop probability is about 2% trips around 1%, dunno about straight, it s probably less. flopped draws dont have much value as u can see in this hand because u gotta pay a lot to continue and are only 20% to hit on the next street if its not a combodraw. also u dont even flop a good draw very frequently. ev (preflop call)=-50c

[LMAO]

Interesting discussion and all but i call Spewage. plain and simple.

btw. define "combo drw" please... because i looked a few times and i don't see it.

-LMAO

[Quester]

Implied odds on the turn vs. JJ+:
We are 28% to win against JJ+.
$21.55 in pot, $8.75 to call. On the river, we need:
0.28*(21.55+x) - 0.72*8.75 = 0
0.28*(21.55+x) = 6.30
x = 0.95.

Thus, hero needs to extract at least $0.95 on the river for the call on the turn to be profitable.

Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

[Khaos4k]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you dont have the odds to call the preflop raise and just hope to hit something

[/ QUOTE ]
Wtf? Do you see his stack in there???

I am getting nearly 2:1 to call preflop. I am a 4:1 dog against an overpair and I have position. I only need to make up about $4 to make this a profitable call. I am almost always getting his stack if I flop a straight/trips/boat/whatever.

The flop is nowhere near marginal. I have about 45% equity in the pot and am getting 2:1 pot odds. Folding would be insane. It's just a question of whether I should raise or not, and my feeling and read told me he would almost never fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind that you are a 4:1 dog to win by the river. I think you are severely overestimating your implied odds with such a weak hand.

[Sigurd]

I fold to the preflop min raise, because it is a LOW suited connector. If it was 78s, I wouldn't really mind, but 45s just seems to have so much potential for trouble against other suited connectors.

I'm leaning towards folding the flop, since a /images/graemlins/spade.gif will have a good chance of killing our action and so will any card that gives us a straigth. However, this is pretty dependend on how villain is playing.

[donkeykong2]

[ QUOTE ]
Implied odds on the turn vs. JJ+:
We are 28% to win against JJ+.
$21.55 in pot, $8.75 to call. On the river, we need:
0.28*(21.55+x) - 0.72*8.75 = 0
0.28*(21.55+x) = 6.30
x = 0.95.

Thus, hero needs to extract at least $0.95 on the river for the call on the turn to be profitable.

Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

turn call is good if we have him specifically on that range.