77 from BB versus possible CO stealer

[Kharlog]

The opponent is totally unknown. Would you call, fold or raise this flop? I think typical CO raiser would have a range that 77 beats in this flop so folding might not be good. If I call I'd make it tough for myself on turn. Raising will give me lots of information but is costly, especially when opponent cbets the pot. I think I must fold that turn because the villain wouldn't call with worse hand than my sevens. What do you think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 ($51)
MP2 ($28.50)
MP3 ($31.80)
CO ($29.80)
Button ($58.65)
SB ($7.25)
Hero ($52.80)
UTG ($24.30)
UTG+1 ($50.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, CO calls $8.

Turn: ($28.25) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($28.25) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $15.8 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $44.05

[greg nice]

raising for information is rarely ever a good move. thats why when you cr here, its because you think youre best. the turn doesnt change anything really, so push

[_TKO_]

Raising the flop here will make a worse hand fold and a better hand call. His range is wide, and he'll keep betting worse hands. I would just c/c this flop and go from there.

[Sean Fraley]

Preflop: As a rule, if there is a likelihood that CO is stealing, reraise instead of call. This may well have ended the hand right there and even if you saw a flop, a check-raise on the flop followed by a shove if called on the turn would look very different to villain than it did here.

Flop: Check-raises is fine. Villainss call is a bit wonky, but unless he was stealing with crap I don't see that many hands that he would have a three with. You might be up against a higher pair though.

Turn: Since you check-raised on the flop, just shove this like you mean it. There is a decent chance this would fold a better pair.

River: As played, you should fold here. To me it seems like villain had unpaired overs, one of which was a queen on the flop. He didn't buy your flop check-raise for whatever reason (thought it was a bluff, thought a six would do this and hoped to spike a higher pair) and after your turn check he knew his paired queen was good on the river.

[davidyang]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Since you check-raised on the flop, just shove this like you mean it. There is a decent chance this would fold a better pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is wrong. At these stakes, TAGs don't even fold TT, JJ here, let alone an unknown. If you push this turn you only get called by a hand that beats you.

[_TKO_]

But a hand that beats you may not always call.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Since you check-raised on the flop, just shove this like you mean it. There is a decent chance this would fold a better pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is wrong. At these stakes, TAGs don't even fold TT, JJ here, let alone an unknown. If you push this turn you only get called by a hand that beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero isn't giving up on the hand entirely after the flop call, he should bet the turn. A decent size turn bet pretty much pot commits him and if your going to be calling the rest or your stack in on the river, you might as well try to use what slight fold equity you have on the turn. If Hero is giving up on this hand after the flop call, he should play the turn and river pretty much just like he did.

EDIT: Congrats to TKO for having 5150 posts as of his response to this thread. In addition to being the LAPD police code for an escaped lunatic, it is also a good Van Halen album.

[davidyang]

Wow, I didn't realize this was even 9 handed. Isn't there a FR forum somewhere?

Anyways, I'm not sure my analysis changes too much here though. Against an unknown what hands that are better are folding here? Maybe my mindset is too much on 6max. Do people fold here regularly with an overpair on this type of board in FR?

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I didn't realize this was even 9 handed. Isn't there a FR forum somewhere?

Anyways, I'm not sure my analysis changes too much here though. Against an unknown what hands that are better are folding here? Maybe my mindset is too much on 6max. Do people fold here regularly with an overpair on this type of board in FR?

[/ QUOTE ]

My analysis hold for both, for the reasons I stated. A heads-up pot in 6-Max is really no different than a heads-up pot full ring.

[davidyang]

[ QUOTE ]
My analysis hold for both, for the reasons I stated. A heads-up pot in 6-Max is really no different than a heads-up pot full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that if hero believes he has the best hand, then he should definitely push the turn. However, all I'm saying is if he pushes thinking he has FE over a hand that beats him on the turn then I think he is wrong. Therefore, I only think he gets called here by a hand that beats him, and almost never folds a hand he's behind.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My analysis hold for both, for the reasons I stated. A heads-up pot in 6-Max is really no different than a heads-up pot full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that if hero believes he has the best hand, then he should definitely push the turn. However, all I'm saying is if he pushes thinking he has FE over a hand that beats him on the turn then I think he is wrong. Therefore, I only think he gets called here by a hand that beats him, and almost never folds a hand he's behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT and JJ won't fold, but smaller pairs likely would. We are also hoping to fold hands like AK and KQ that held on hoping to spike a pair, and which I'm thinking is what villain likely had, since the river king seemed to get him all excited.

[davidyang]

[ QUOTE ]

TT and JJ won't fold, but smaller pairs likely would. We are also hoping to fold hands like AK and KQ that held on hoping to spike a pair, and which I'm thinking is what villain likely had, since the river king seemed to get him all excited.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically, we're not disagreeing at all. I agree that JJ/TT never folds here. Like I said previously, if hero believes that villain has something like AK/AQ or a lower PP, then by all means push. The only hand I could possibly see a COMPETENT villain folding that we're behind would be 99.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
So basically, we're not disagreeing at all. I agree that JJ/TT never folds here. Like I said previously, if hero believes that villain has something like AK/AQ or a lower PP, then by all means push. The only hand I could possibly see a COMPETENT villain folding that we're behind would be 99.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, pretty much. The only reason I'm for a shove is because if Hero isn't giving up entirely, he needs to make a turn bet that pot commits him. Under those circumstances I would rather be aggressive and take advantage of what admittedly weak fold equity he has rather than bet something like $20 on the turn and be putting the rest of his stack in on the river if villain calls the turn bet.

[Check_The_Nuts]

this line sucks.

Either lead or float+lead turn. If he bets pot into that board I'm definitely going to float rather than check raise (cuz check raise is too damn expensive).

Also, people tend to cbet these boards less cuz other people tend to check raise, donk, and float this board with their crappy midpair.