Oh noes, JJ flops overcards oop

[Sir Winalot]

Button got his stack from sb and bb, seems decent enough but no real reads.

20NL
SB ($8)
BB ($13)
Hero ($31)
CO ($7) waiting for BB
Button ($58)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero raises to $0.8, Button calls, blinds fold

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif($1.9)
Hero checks, Button bets $1, Hero calls

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($3.9)

<font color="red"> I bet flop about 80%, but what do you think of my line after the check. And what to do on the turn and why? </font>

[futuredoc85]

flop check i like more on a dry board, but its nbd. calling flop is fine, id raise sometimes because its just such a weak bet on a drawy board. turn i think is a c/f because every draw just got there.

[Genz]

You can try to represent a flush draw by betting or check/raising. Button's flop bet wasn't very strong. So he could be weak. Then the turn card is very unlikely to have helped him. Still I don't want to see another club on the river so I like my fold equity here and bet out. If called or raised, I shut down.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
You can try to represent a flush draw by betting or check/raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, I don't think 20nl villains are smart enough to fold (there's a reason why uNL = $$$).

Futuredoc, you're right. I'm usually betting flops that are this wet, but this time I decided to check for some reason (I was multitabling so I might have just missed it).

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can try to represent a flush draw by betting or check/raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, I don't think 20nl villains are smart enough to fold (there's a reason why uNL = $$$).

Futuredoc, you're right. I'm usually betting flops that are this wet, but this time I decided to check for some reason (I was multitabling so I might have just missed it).

[/ QUOTE ]

another reason i think you dont have much FE is that his weak bet is often a draw on boards like this. most of the time he either has a straight or a flush here

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
most of the time he either has a straight

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be kind of hard to have on this board.

Bet the flop. As played, c/r the turn to represent the flush, and if called c/f river.

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most of the time he either has a straight

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be kind of hard to have on this board.

Bet the flop. As played, c/r the turn to represent the flush, and if called c/f river.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok lets play fill in the blanks

3 4 _ _ 7

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]


ok lets play fill in the blanks

3 4 _ _ 7

[/ QUOTE ]

When there's only one combo for a straight on a board, like I said, it's pretty hard to have unless you often see monsters under the bed. Esp with a hand villain is highly unlikely to have in the first place...

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


ok lets play fill in the blanks

3 4 _ _ 7

[/ QUOTE ]

When there's only one combo for a straight on a board, like I said, it's pretty hard to have unless you often see monsters under the bed. Esp with a hand villain is highly unlikely to have in the first place...

[/ QUOTE ]

im not sure why you think its hard for him to have 56 here and lead flop weak with an OESD? point isnt that i think he definitely has a straight, the point is people make these weak leads on this board with OESDs/FDs most of the time

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]

im not sure why you think its hard for him to have 56 here and lead flop weak with an OESD? point isnt that i think he definitely has a straight, the point is people make these weak leads on this board with OESDs/FDs most of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

You said "most" of the time he has a straight or a flush. I guess "most" could mean the flush covers 60% of that "most" and the straight is 20%, with the other 20% being whatever, and when you combine them it is technically "most" of the time they have those holdings. But my point is him holding 54 here is not going to happen all that often, while you made it out like you're going to see 54 much of the time.

[Sir Winalot]

Actually he said:

[ QUOTE ]
most of the time he either has a straight or a flush here

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyways, I do agree that 56 and two clubs are a part of his range, maybe close to 30%. But still I think that worse pocket pairs, Qx and random missed cards that he's bluffing are there too. Thoughts on this?

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually he said:

[ QUOTE ]
most of the time he either has a straight or a flush here

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, did you even read my post? I said I GUESS when he said that statement the flush could make up the "most" (i.e. 60% flush, 20% straight), but that the point itself still stands -- the straight is not significantly more likely than any other standard holding.

[miniuser]

as played you have to check fold turn to any bet that isn't retardedly small. by checking the flop you pretty much gave up control of the hand.

dont even think about trying to represent anything, as you mentioned its 20nl and without reads you can't expect to have any fold equity vs top pair. If he has flush or straight he's obv not folding, if he has (any) queen he's prob not folding. as far as lower pp's and bluffs being part of his range, that is something read dependant and since you have no particular read there's no point in continuing with the hand. He isn't betting anything you beat on the turn and there's no value to be gained by you from worse hands.

[J. Stew]

you want to lead the turn now to protect against a lone club but then your line looks really fishy. you can't really rep a flush after not c-betting the flop and a pair of sevens would c-bet almost always, like you normally do with JJ.

so if you donk the turn an aware player might raise just b/c your line looks really weak, then you're looking at an overcard and a flush/st. possibility so you'd probably have to fold w/out a read.

as played i'd c/c the turn, though b/fing is prolly good too or maybe better as he probably isn't that aware of your line and c/c 1/2pot bets on non /images/graemlins/club.gif rivers, c/f to /images/graemlins/club.gif or pot sized rivers.

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually he said:

[ QUOTE ]
most of the time he either has a straight or a flush here

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyways, I do agree that 56 and two clubs are a part of his range, maybe close to 30%. But still I think that worse pocket pairs, Qx and random missed cards that he's bluffing are there too. Thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think he usually bets those bigger on this board if hes decent. if you feel those are part of his range then you just need check and decide if hes capable of bluffing this scare card if he bets.