Serious Question for Christians

[Butcho22]

I would first like to say that I am NOT trying to get into a debate about whether or not there is a "God".

My question for the christians out there is this...

If God created me, then how can he allow me to be sent to hell if I just can't bring myself to believe in him?

I mean, why wouldn't I want to believe in God? Heaven sounds pretty nice last time I checked.

My parents are both very into church and I had to go until I was ~16 so I have a very good understanding of the bible, etc.

The thing is, I just CAN'T get myself to believe. And if God actually created me this way, why would I be punished for that?
I know, I know, he gives us the power to choose.

WELL I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE BUT I CAN'T

So now what?

[Haunted Ghost]

Just take your time. There's no hurry. It will eventually come to you. It's just not yet time yet. He has plans for you.

[Butcho22]

[ QUOTE ]
Just take your time. There's no hurry. It will eventually come to you. It's just not yet time yet. He has plans for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my really good friends from growing up just woke up one day and was SUPER hardcore into God. So I suppose this type of thing could happen to me as well.

But what if it doesn't?

God should know that I want to believe, and I think that should be enough if he really does exist.

[m_the0ry]

I like to pose this hypothetical when someone of faith starts trying to convince me of their vigor.

I am at a podium and I am the protagonist in this hypothetical. You (the person of faith) are going to convince me to share your faith. My mind is open and willing to listen. The only challenge, however, is that every other person of faith in the universe is trying to do the same thing. How do you convince me to follow christ with billions telling me I should follow islam, millions saying I should be buddhist, more saying I should be jewish, quaker... etc?

[Haunted Ghost]

As you listen with an open mind to the billions telling you to follow their non-Christian beliefs feel secure in the fact that the more they do so the stronger your belief in Christ will be at the UNCONSCIOUS LEVEL, totally outside your awareness. And the more you entertain their beliefs the stronger your faith in Christ will be at this deep level of genuine understanding. And the more you resist Christ with your logic and reason the stronger your faith in Him will be in you heart and unconscious mind. Until one day - maybe tomorrow, maybe now, maybe next year or a few years from now - you will wake up from your slumber and finally embrace Jesus as your Savior.

[m_the0ry]

Actually now that you mention it, I think I can feel my belief in Allah growing on the unconscious level.

[Butcho22]

[ QUOTE ]
As you listen with an open mind to the billions telling you to follow their non-Christian beliefs feel secure in the fact that the more they do so the stronger your belief in Christ will be at the UNCONSCIOUS LEVEL, totally outside your awareness. And the more you entertain their beliefs the stronger your faith in Christ will be at this deep level of genuine understanding. And the more you resist Christ with your logic and reason the stronger your faith in Him will be in you heart and unconscious mind. Until one day - maybe tomorrow, maybe now, maybe next year or a few years from now - you will wake up from your slumber and finally embrace Jesus as your Savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already agree that it is possible for someone to "wake up" one day and believe in God.

That alone isn't near enough for me to actually say, "I believe in God" and mean it.

If you hooked me up to a polygraph and asked me if I believe in God, I would say no and I would pass. Now ask me if I WANT to believe in God and I will say yes and pass.

So again, I'm asking what you think will happen to me when I die, if in fact God/Heaven are real? How can I possibly be sent to hell when I was openly trying to accept God?
How can a person of a different religion be sent to hell when they were raised to know nothing different? Seems to me they are just trying to find the same comfort you are, and you can't blame them for that can you?

Again, I'm really not trying to start anything. These are just some of the thoughts I have which are obviously holding me back from having any type of faith so take it FWIW.

[dknightx]

why cant you believe there is a God? lack of evidence? or what?

[chezlaw]

Dont worry about it. You've got it dead on that of god created you this way then that's what he intends.

and if his the miserable sort of god who will punish you for it then that's just tough on everyone including the believers, though why anyone would believe in god and have such a low opinion of him is a mystery.

chez

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
would first like to say that I am NOT trying to get into a debate about whether or not there is a "God".

My question for the christians out there is this...

If God created me, then how can he allow me to be sent to hell if I just can't bring myself to believe in him?

I mean, why wouldn't I want to believe in God? Heaven sounds pretty nice last time I checked.

My parents are both very into church and I had to go until I was ~16 so I have a very good understanding of the bible, etc.

The thing is, I just CAN'T get myself to believe. And if God actually created me this way, why would I be punished for that?
I know, I know, he gives us the power to choose.

WELL I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE BUT I CAN'T



[/ QUOTE ]

Religion isn’t something you choose, like a political party, it’s something you are born with. An adult born in a Christian household could no more believe in the specific God of Islam, than believe in Santa Clause. A non- believer doesn’t choose his non belief, it’s just there. If someone was pushing you off a 20 story building, all the while trying to convince you that you will float, well, you simply wouldn’t believe him. You can’t choose your beliefs. The Christian God sends you to hell for something you have no control over. ( That is some Christian Gods, other's do other things depending on what man invented them )

[Butcho22]

[ QUOTE ]
why cant you believe there is a God? lack of evidence? or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lack of evidence, sort of yeah.

It's a tough sell, you must admit. All the stories with nothing to back it up but a book. Why should God expect me to just blindly follow him? Why can't he just show himself to me in some way to allow me to believe?

How could a man who is "so great" even allow so many bad things to happen to good people?

How can anybody possibly believe in the "power of prayer" when there are so many obvious cases of it not working?

[Butcho22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would first like to say that I am NOT trying to get into a debate about whether or not there is a "God".

My question for the christians out there is this...

If God created me, then how can he allow me to be sent to hell if I just can't bring myself to believe in him?

I mean, why wouldn't I want to believe in God? Heaven sounds pretty nice last time I checked.

My parents are both very into church and I had to go until I was ~16 so I have a very good understanding of the bible, etc.

The thing is, I just CAN'T get myself to believe. And if God actually created me this way, why would I be punished for that?
I know, I know, he gives us the power to choose.

WELL I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE BUT I CAN'T



[/ QUOTE ]

Religion isn’t something you choose, like a political party, it’s something you are born with. An adult born in a Christian household could no more believe in the specific God of Islam, than believe in Santa Clause. A non- believer doesn’t choose his non belief, it’s just there. If someone was pushing you off a 20 story building, all the while trying to convince you that you will float, well, you simply wouldn’t believe him. You can’t choose your beliefs. The Christian God sends you to hell for something you have no control over. ( That is some Christian Gods, other's do other things depending on what man invented them )

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I being levelllled in the SMP forum?

chez,
ty

[Alex-db]

[ QUOTE ]
As you listen with an open mind to the billions telling you to follow their non-Christian beliefs feel secure in the fact that the more they do so the stronger your belief in Christ will be at the UNCONSCIOUS LEVEL, totally outside your awareness. And the more you entertain their beliefs the stronger your faith in Christ will be at this deep level of genuine understanding. And the more you resist Christ with your logic and reason the stronger your faith in Him will be in you heart and unconscious mind. Until one day - maybe tomorrow, maybe now, maybe next year or a few years from now - you will wake up from your slumber and finally embrace Jesus as your Savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was an interesting response, its worded a lot like an NLP hypnotic behavioral change script.

Is this the type of stuff they say to you if they get you into a church in a hypnotic head-down eyes closed receptive state?? Very cult-like!

[MidGe]

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[ QUOTE ]
As you listen with an open mind to the billions telling you to follow their non-Christian beliefs feel secure in the fact that the more they do so the stronger your belief in Christ will be at the UNCONSCIOUS LEVEL, totally outside your awareness. And the more you entertain their beliefs the stronger your faith in Christ will be at this deep level of genuine understanding. And the more you resist Christ with your logic and reason the stronger your faith in Him will be in you heart and unconscious mind. Until one day - maybe tomorrow, maybe now, maybe next year or a few years from now - you will wake up from your slumber and finally embrace Jesus as your Savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was an interesting response, its worded a lot like an NLP hypnotic behavioral change script.

Is this the type of stuff they say to you if they get you into a church in a hypnotic head-down eyes closed receptive state?? Very cult-like!

[/ QUOTE ]
Well spotted! LOL!

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just take your time. There's no hurry. It will eventually come to you. It's just not yet time yet. He has plans for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my really good friends from growing up just woke up one day and was SUPER hardcore into God. So I suppose this type of thing could happen to me as well.

But what if it doesn't?

God should know that I want to believe, and I think that should be enough if he really does exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL If you don't come around even though you want to believe... I guess you suffer for eternity. That's called Christian compassion.

Seriously, you're looking for answers to logical questions from people who believe illogical things. Its quite unlikely that you'll get any satifying answers.

But you can get a lot of stock 'non answers' like... God has plans for you. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[pokerbobo]

I was born and raised Catholic, went to church, etc. I never was convinced of the existence of any higher power or god. I never could understand the teachings of creation and the things modern science knows now to contradict the creationism story. (some hardcore religious nuts are actually teaching kids dinosaurs existed 4 to 6 thousand years ago, not millions of years ago) This seems cruel to me to mislead kids by teaching them incorrect facts to fit your faiths version of history.

A couple things to ponder...Why do most people believe in god or a god. My answer was the same reason kids believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy (because they were taught since birth by their parents) parents eventually come clean about Santa and the rest, but god is never questioned.

Second thing to ponder: Why were gods invented in the first place? My belief is that the early civilizations created gods to control the behavior of the people. Storms came...gods were angry...floods came...very angry.....drought meant sacrafice a human heart etc. Most early civilizations had many gods, and it instilled fear in people to do irrational things. the power of the priests or holy men grew as people feared consequence.

People say "well someone or something had to create us" Well using that same logic....then someone or something had to create our creator and someone had to create that creator and so on and so on.

The bottom line is people who do not believe in god are using logic. People who do believe have blind faith. Why is it so unbelievable to people that we evolved over millions of years on this planet, yet it is easily believable that an invisible,unprovable never seen force created the entire world and all the species on it in 6 days?

Don't sweat it if you really dont believe, I was like you several years back, but once I came to realize that I was not alone in my non belief it was quite easy.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]

If God created me, then how can he allow me to be sent to hell if I just can't bring myself to believe in him?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not trying hard enough, obv!

Seriously I wouldn't sweat it. Try to live a good life and see what happens after you die (nothing, probably).

[Wubbie075]

[ QUOTE ]
Just take your time. There's no hurry. It will eventually come to you. It's just not yet time yet. He has plans for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just make sure you don't get hit by a bus before you get saved... oh wait, if you do get hit by a bus it was God's plan... oh well

[ChrisV]

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WELL I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE BUT I CAN'T

So now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a large dose of LSD-25 and attend one of those crazy church services where they speak in tongues and do faith healing and whatnot. By the end, you will either be an evangelist or have developed a powerful hatred of religion.

[vhawk01]

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If God created me, then how can he allow me to be sent to hell if I just can't bring myself to believe in him?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not trying hard enough, obv!

Seriously I wouldn't sweat it. Try to live a good life and see what happens after you die (nothing, probably).

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[vhawk01]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[MidGe]

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Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the biblical descriptions of god, it may be marginally better coming from satan.

[chezlaw]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[vhawk01]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No. What if our warped sense of morality is from satan, but a good God still exists? There is no reason whatsoever to think that acting morally gives you more of a fighting chance.

[chezlaw]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No. What if our warped sense of morality is from satan, but a good God still exists? There is no reason whatsoever to think that acting morally gives you more of a fighting chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The good god wont hold it against you for an honest mistake. It just makes no difference if god has allowed satan to mislead us.

chez

[vhawk01]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No. What if our warped sense of morality is from satan, but a good God still exists? There is no reason whatsoever to think that acting morally gives you more of a fighting chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The good god wont hold it against you for an honest mistake. It just makes no difference if god has allowed satan to mislead us.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS (the Christian) good God sure seems to want to hold things against us. Your point presupposes that the only reliable God is a good God...but thats not so. An evil God could be just as consistent as a good one, and there are just as many evil ones as good ones.

[chezlaw]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No. What if our warped sense of morality is from satan, but a good God still exists? There is no reason whatsoever to think that acting morally gives you more of a fighting chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The good god wont hold it against you for an honest mistake. It just makes no difference if god has allowed satan to mislead us.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS (the Christian) good God sure seems to want to hold things against us. Your point presupposes that the only reliable God is a good God...but thats not so. An evil God could be just as consistent as a good one, and there are just as many evil ones as good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that isn't my point. If god is evil then there's nothing we can do - we're shafted either way. So we can ignore those cases and just consider what's best if there's a good god.

Even if its a gazillion times more likely that god is evil than good, it's still best to act as if god is good because we gain once per gazillion and lose nothing the rest of the time.

Edit: This is nothing to do with the nasty god some christians seem so keen on. Only a benevolent god would be a good thing.

chez

[vhawk01]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No. What if our warped sense of morality is from satan, but a good God still exists? There is no reason whatsoever to think that acting morally gives you more of a fighting chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The good god wont hold it against you for an honest mistake. It just makes no difference if god has allowed satan to mislead us.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS (the Christian) good God sure seems to want to hold things against us. Your point presupposes that the only reliable God is a good God...but thats not so. An evil God could be just as consistent as a good one, and there are just as many evil ones as good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that isn't my point. If god is evil then there's nothing we can do - we're shafted either way. So we can ignore those cases and just consider what's best if there's a good god.

Even if its a gazillion times more likely that god is evil than good, it's still best to act as if god is good because we gain once per gazillion and lose nothing the rest of the time.

Edit: This is nothing to do with the nasty god some christians seem so keen on. Only a benevolent god would be a good thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I got your point I just don't think its true. Perhaps my idea of evil is different. But what if there is an evil God, and he rewards people for doing evil with eternal pleasure, happiness, 'Heaven.' So, we were given a sense of right and wrong SO THAT WE COULD CHOOSE WRONG. Only by murdering and raping are we going to have a shot at Heaven.

[chezlaw]

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Honestly, there is no reason to think 'living a good life' is in any way a better approach than 'molest and kill everyone you see,' in terms of hoping for good things in an afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. If our idea of right and wrong comes from a god then our best bet for a good afterlife is to let this idea guide our actions.

[ QUOTE ]
You should just do whatever makes you happiest.

[/ QUOTE ] Fortunately, that's much the same thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if it comes from Satan?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then there's nothing you can do about it. The only time it makes any difference is if a good god is in charge. So purely from an afterlife point of view the best bet is to be guided by your idea of right and wrong.

I doubt its enough to give up much normal life happiness but I doubt its giving up much if any normal life happiness anyway.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No. What if our warped sense of morality is from satan, but a good God still exists? There is no reason whatsoever to think that acting morally gives you more of a fighting chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The good god wont hold it against you for an honest mistake. It just makes no difference if god has allowed satan to mislead us.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS (the Christian) good God sure seems to want to hold things against us. Your point presupposes that the only reliable God is a good God...but thats not so. An evil God could be just as consistent as a good one, and there are just as many evil ones as good ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that isn't my point. If god is evil then there's nothing we can do - we're shafted either way. So we can ignore those cases and just consider what's best if there's a good god.

Even if its a gazillion times more likely that god is evil than good, it's still best to act as if god is good because we gain once per gazillion and lose nothing the rest of the time.

Edit: This is nothing to do with the nasty god some christians seem so keen on. Only a benevolent god would be a good thing.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I got your point I just don't think its true. Perhaps my idea of evil is different. But what if there is an evil God, and he rewards people for doing evil with eternal pleasure, happiness, 'Heaven.' So, we were given a sense of right and wrong SO THAT WE COULD CHOOSE WRONG. Only by murdering and raping are we going to have a shot at Heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its not that we could choose wrong. If there's an evil god then there's no positive expectation in any behavior beecause we have no information to go on - even if in fact there was something we could have done.

I think the rest follows simply but that's the bit we seem to disagree about. Are you disagreing with the above or is the problem elsewhere?

chez