Legal online poker for money (SF-based company)

[El Diablo]

http://www.thealarmclock.com/mt/archives/2007/02/betzip_raises_v.html

http://www.betzip.com/

"they say they are now the only legal, play-for-money poker site in the US."

Interesting concept. $20/month to play in a ton of tournaments, many with cash prizes.

This model could be very interesting to lower limit players who play poker for fun and a little extra money at the side. And if successful, potentially could extend to higher limit players.

$20/month for a lot of poker and a (relatively) ton of potential upside.

Thought the business-minded poker players among you might find this interesting to discuss.

[Gary Stevenson]

i would hope if something like this did catch on it wouldn't attract too many casual players away from the regular sites that are still up and running for US players. Hopefully this would lead more towards legalizing the sites that already exist and the methods for getting $ on/off them instead of leading to higher buy in $/month sites...that idea doesn't really appeal to me or probably to many other serious/semi-serious players

[kidcolin]

My sister's boyfriend works for one of these companies (or a similar one). He often tries to get me to put money on their site. I haven't talked to him about it in a couple months, but from the sounds of it it's just doing OK, not great or anything.

El D, you hit the nail on the head with the low limit, recreational player. That's largely their target marget and who they're shooting for. Tournies especially. I mean think about it, if it gets a decent player pool going, $20 a month gets you a TON of experience. For a lot of ESPN-watching, aspiring players, who never really found out about the huge $$$ that could made on Party, Stars, etc., this is a sweet opportunity for them. And there are a lot of those guys out there. We're in a neat little bubble over here in 2p2. There's a whole slew of players who don't know a ton about the online economy. They're not pulling in crazy dough, they just want to play, but they're skeptical of the legality issues, whether sites are legit, etc. This sounds like a solid opportunity for them.

[Justin A]

Last year I worked for a company doing the same thing. Go Nuts Poker (http://www.gonutspoker.com).

I don't work for them anymore but I still own a small piece, and they just merged with a larger company in the bay area with better financial resources called uJogo.

[fish2plus2]

What is stopping this company from having a $1000/month option that allows you to enter bigger tournaments?

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
What is stopping this company from having a $1000/month option that allows you to enter bigger tournaments?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably nothing - but the market for $1,000/month players they could acquire probably isn't big enough at this time to make their model work.

at least, not while options like Stars and Full Tilt and UB etc are still serving the US market.

I'm not sure how their model works, but I'm pretty confident it can't work while the above sites are still operating in the US. too much competition that is a lot better at what they do. but, it could be a nice company if the playing field is leveled, and having a first mover advantage could be a big deal.

also, this company has been around for a little while. it doesn't look like they have grown very much

[Los Feliz Slim]

As an expert in neither law, business, nor poker, I don't understand how this could be "legal" in places where charity tournaments, etc, get shut down. Seems like a pretty obvious loophole. "It's not an entry fee, it's a membership fee."

[fish2plus2]

LFS,

Yes, I agree.

[NoahSD]

I think this will be really bad for business if it catches on. I think fish are going to be much less likely to pay a big monthly fee than to play in a big game.

[XXXNoahXXX]

Does the membership fee get you access to all tournaments or is there a limit to how many you can enter?

Seems like you'd only be getting most for your money if you played every one.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
As an expert in neither law, business, nor poker, I don't understand how this could be "legal" in places where charity tournaments, etc, get shut down. Seems like a pretty obvious loophole. "It's not an entry fee, it's a membership fee."

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends exactly on your model, but yeah something like seems very close to rake + fees. other models which are much more clean involve a monthly fee, and players win points which can then be exchanged for ipods and TV's and whatever. you can't cash out or win real money.

[NoahSD]

"BetZip "Levels the Playing Field" - As a Player's Club member you can play and win cash tournaments based upon your actual level of poker experience and ability. Our unique rating system creates continuous tournament rankings for every player. Now you can compete against others of similar ability instead of swimming with the sharks!"

If this means what I think it means, this site really could suck for professionals.

[xx44]

I was on a conference call with the betzip people about 2 months ago. I was very unimpressed with their presentaton. Aside from the fact that theyre operating, at best, in a grey area,they have the same issues relating to processors. I believe IIRC that they are actively seeking processors and backup processors which has been a difficult task.

I also remember having an issue with one of their attorney's legal opinion of their business. I remember it was fairly ambiguous, and after doing a little research it wqas actually contradictory to what he has stated earlier (IIRC).

Anyway, putting the legality and processing issues aside, I feel there is no way this will catch on. I believe the micro players would be just as happy if not happier, playing the freerolls and playmoney tourneys on the current sites.

I will say though that I was surprised at the amount of current subscribers. I think it was a few thousand so far.

[Phat Mack]

Here's an outfit that claims legality because they are playing duplicate.

e-Poker (http://e-pokerusa.com/website/)

The rake looks prohibitive.

[El Diablo]

LFS,

I have no idea what their legal position is. I've seen presentations from two types of companies that are clearly legal (not necessarily poker, but same principle) based on current laws:

a) Companies that have free tournaments/contests with advertiser sponsored prizes.

b) Companies that have skill-based variants of poker and other games (PM's link is probably something like this).

I haven't looked at betzip's offering to see if it looks like they fall into either of these categories and have no knowledge or opinion on whether what they are doing is likely to be considered legal under current laws.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an outfit that claims legality because they are playing duplicate.

e-Poker (http://e-pokerusa.com/website/)

The rake looks prohibitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive always thought duplicate poker would be awesome. i didnt know anyone does it.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Here's an outfit that claims legality because they are playing duplicate.

e-Poker

The rake looks prohibitive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ive always thought duplicate poker would be awesome. i didnt know anyone does it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was talking with a Bridge pro the other day and he was telling me this is how Bridge tournaments are done to make it fair and thought this is definitely how a poker tournament should be done, or at least done as an alternative.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Here's an outfit that claims legality because they are playing duplicate.

e-Poker

The rake looks prohibitive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ive always thought duplicate poker would be awesome. i didnt know anyone does it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was talking with a Bridge pro the other day and he was telling me this is how Bridge tournaments are done to make it fair and thought this is definitely how a poker tournament should be done, or at least done as an alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

scoring in poker would be really difficult. you would have to reset chip stacks before each hand. but that would also be a good thing because there would be no such thing as short stack all in preflop BS. the biggest problem would be the lack of drama because no one would get knocked out, its just kind of an anticlimatic tallying of scores at the end. also, fish would very quickily realize they had absolutely no shot so it would probably be -EV in the long run.

[edfurlong]

This is pretty much right up my alley pokerwise right now. Thanks.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Here's an outfit that claims legality because they are playing duplicate.

e-Poker

The rake looks prohibitive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ive always thought duplicate poker would be awesome. i didnt know anyone does it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was talking with a Bridge pro the other day and he was telling me this is how Bridge tournaments are done to make it fair and thought this is definitely how a poker tournament should be done, or at least done as an alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

scoring in poker would be really difficult. you would have to reset chip stacks before each hand. but that would also be a good thing because there would be no such thing as short stack all in preflop BS. the biggest problem would be the lack of drama because no one would get knocked out, its just kind of an anticlimatic tallying of scores at the end. also, fish would very quickily realize they had absolutely no shot so it would probably be -EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. The people at the link I posted reset the chip stacks. The players have a "hand stack" of 1000, and a real money stack with which they pay or pay off after each hand.

I've played in two duplicate poker tourneys. One was regular hold 'em. Players played the same hands as those at other tables, but chips stacks weren't reset, so I guess it wasn't really duplicate.

The other was Chinese Poker, which was ideal for duplicate since we could use standard bridge boards, and the payoffs were always in points so we didn't need to mess with equalizing chip stacks.

If I were developing a 'legal' poker site, I think I'd go with duplicate Chinese tournaments...

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Here's an outfit that claims legality because they are playing duplicate.

e-Poker

The rake looks prohibitive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ive always thought duplicate poker would be awesome. i didnt know anyone does it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was talking with a Bridge pro the other day and he was telling me this is how Bridge tournaments are done to make it fair and thought this is definitely how a poker tournament should be done, or at least done as an alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

scoring in poker would be really difficult. you would have to reset chip stacks before each hand. but that would also be a good thing because there would be no such thing as short stack all in preflop BS. the biggest problem would be the lack of drama because no one would get knocked out, its just kind of an anticlimatic tallying of scores at the end. also, fish would very quickily realize they had absolutely no shot so it would probably be -EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. The people at the link I posted reset the chip stacks. The players have a "hand stack" of 1000, and a real money stack with which they pay or pay off after each hand.

I've played in two duplicate poker tourneys. One was regular hold 'em. Players played the same hands as those at other tables, but chips stacks weren't reset, so I guess it wasn't really duplicate.

The other was Chinese Poker, which was ideal for duplicate since we could use standard bridge boards, and the payoffs were always in points so we didn't need to mess with equalizing chip stacks.

If I were developing a 'legal' poker site, I think I'd go with duplicate Chinese tournaments...

[/ QUOTE ]

chinese makes a lot of sense but it seems like a very high number of the players would play 99% of hands exactly the same.

also i really dont think chinese poker shouold be considered poker. i feel like there is basically an optimal strategy for most situations which is pretty much independent of the play of your opponents.

[Slow Play Ray]

could someone briefly explain the concept of dual poker to me? i'm curious but can't reach any of these linked sites from work. thanks in advance.