NL25 - AJs gets 3bet with another caller in between

[Triggerle]

Button seems like a decent player. UTG is weak.

Full Tilt Poker
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
BTN: $38.65
SB: $17
BB: $27.4
UTG: $25.70
MP: $24.30
Hero (CO): $27.35

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> J/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.35, 6 players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.85</font>, MP folds, Hero calls $0.85, <font color="red">BTN raises to $2.50</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.65, Hero calls $1.65

<font color="blue">It's a $6 pot already so I call and hope to flop big. I intend to get away from TP hands if he keeps up the aggression.</font>

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($7.85, 3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $5</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $5

<font color="blue">I was aware that the nut flush draw and potentially dominated overcards don't justify this call. It is not hugely -EV, though. For this reason I still made it because I wanted to see if he fires another barrel as well as to show him that he can't just take hands away from me.</font>

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif [Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif] ($17.85, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $20</font>, Hero folds

<font color="blue">Thoughts?</font>

[Gelford]

Hey, this reminds me of your AJ video hand ... and I still do not like it, but it is playable.

I also do not like the flop call


Basically you can hit two types of hands

Two pair puts broadway cards on the flop, which might also hit KQ type of hand ... but this is your best hope, then you might hit a monotone board, but do you expect villian to pay you off ??


Still not hugely -EV I guess, but just not to my taste.

[BobAllinSki]

The first call isnt to bad as its a weak player. Calling the second raise with the intention of not playing a pair is bad in my opinion, you will only flop a flush draw 1 time in 7 and all that really buys you is bluffing rights, the call is ok if you think you will have some pair value but if you dont think this is the case fold it preflop.

The flop is tricky, there is no reasong to put either player on a 7 but the paired board still diminishes your hands value as your implied odds are somewhat worse with the paired board. So your implied odds are bad but your getting fairly attractive direct odds, the only problem is the existance of a re-raiser behind you which reduces your direct odds somewhat as you may call and still end up folding the hand.

In both spots I'd prefer a raise or a fold to call.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is tricky, there is no reasong to put either player on a 7 but the paired board still diminishes your hands value as your implied odds are somewhat worse with the paired board. So your implied odds are bad but your getting fairly attractive direct odds, the only problem is the existance of a re-raiser behind you which reduces your direct odds somewhat as you may call and still end up folding the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop I'm closing the action. It's the re-raiser that bet $5. The weak player is out.

[corsakh]

I dont see nothing wrong with the flop call, its totally justifiable and EV+ considering you have a nutflush draw, two overs one of which can very well be good on one hand and a cbet from the button who might have attempted to squeeze on the other.

And I call both good and bad players. If the btn is good he is probably squeezing and a float on the turn will be very nice. If he is bad, he is certainly stacking off if you hit your flush since he would never let go of an overpair.

[time4adrank]

i would raise the flop and if he 3-bets fold.
most of the time villain will just call and check the turn, giving you a free card.

[Montezuma21]

[ QUOTE ]
i would raise the flop and if he 3-bets fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

you can't be serious.

[eigenvalue]

Nothing wrong here. If the board wouldn't contain a pair, I would consider a reraise from behind, because you have fold equity against a decent player. But not with a paired board.

[clownslayer2]

I understand the "call and try to flop big" but you could say that with any hand. Just because the potential is there, it will not happen very often. With both callers I think you are dominated pre flop and would almost always lay it down, epsecially if you think button is a good player. I also do not like being out of position to the button in this hand. I do not like drawing oop.

As played I definitely like the call on the flop. Fold on the turn is standard without hitting the club.

What would people do here if a Jack had of come on the turn instead and the villain bet out the same ammt? I do not see him holding QQ because that is a huge bet in position with a boat. I would think villain always wants to see another club come and get more out of Hero, but does he have KK?

[Jouster777]

This is a really hard hand to play even after the flop is one of the best we could have expected.

BTN seems like a good player so he way well be squeezing with a wide range preflop. Its checked to him on the flop so he cbets...still a very wide range. We call with our only real hope being hitting our NFD which also means he can get away from AA reasonably cheaply. He is also likely to be cbetting with nothing so all we are getting is pot odds if we hit in that case.

So a call on the flop means very poor implied odds to hit the FD.

Should we donk the flop instead?...viable option, high variance, and a reraise really hurts.

3-bet the flop...not attractive given our OC's are likely to be dominated.

I think the answer here is fold preflop.

Edit: A flop call might make sense if we have a plan/read that says we can take it away if villain checks/bets weakly on the turn...not a good idea against most though.

[Jouster777]

What is the significance of the paired board? You don't think villain has a 7 or 44 do you?

[Unknown Soldier]

i think you played it fine. crai wouldnt be terrible, he'll fold AK/AQ I doubt it's -EV, most of the time you'll have 12 outs if he calls plus you are oop. Calling is alright aswell, I din't mind either. I probably sway towards crai as you are oop.

[Hoffma]

I don't like the preflop call. I am usually raising the .85 bet, trying to steal the button. I'm not sure what would happen if you did this here, but I'm not calling the 1.65 to see a flop against two opponents.

On the flop and given the stack sizes, Button may just be c-betting, but he seems to want to stack off here. If you call, the pot is roughly the size of your stack. You didn't hit, and now you have an easy fold. I am avoiding this situation entirely by either raising for isolation preflop, folding preflop against 2 opponents in a reraised pot, or folding the flop. I think pot control is necessary for a drawing hand like this, and you've got no control OOP here. I don't even think you have the implied odds to call this $5.

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
i would raise the flop and if he 3-bets fold.
most of the time villain will just call and check the turn, giving you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you check raise to $15 then fold to a push when u have $10 left? How are you going to get a free card when he has the button?

IF.. and it's a big IF.. I'm in this pot to begin with with the AJ. I'm either going to B3B this or CRAI. Depending on the villan, you say he's a decent player. I'd prolly take the CRAI approach on him then. He will lay down AK and AQ maybe even some pairs depending on his tightness and his view of you.

[BobAllinSki]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong here. If the board wouldn't contain a pair, I would consider a reraise from behind, because you have fold equity against a decent player. But not with a paired board.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the significance of the paired board? You don't think villain has a 7 or 44 do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be much more inclined to bluff here, the paired board is significant in as much as though it is unlikely that the re-raiser has a 7 or 44 your hand could contain these cards, thus your implied odds are damaged but your bluff chances are better than on a ragged board, calling is probably the worst option because you are unlikely to get paid if you connect but will get charged if you miss.

[Triggerle]

The problem with crai is that my hand should be pretty transparent to him. Because of my flat call of the $0.85 raise pre-flop I shouldn't have AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. After I call the 3bet even 44 is unlikely for me.

[Smilin']

On preflop: I don't think I like the call of the 3bet--you'll be OOP vs. a solid player with a hand that you'll very rarely love on the flop. Plus UTG seems like his hand, which counts for something (if not much). However, I do kind of like raising UTG the first time around to get HU with the bad player, as long as UTG is the kind of bad player who raises a decent amount preflop. Then if Button cold calls your 3bet or 3bets, you know you're ****ed.

On the flop: My feeling is that the call is +EV relative to folding, once you account for the chance that Button is betting with nothing. That counts for more if you think he'll fold A high to a (blank) river bet after the turn goes check-check.

My first instinct was that calling is max EV, but now I think that cr ai on the flop is probably best if your read consists of "decent", at least insofar as decent means aggressive. Basically there should be a higher chance that Button has something mediocre he's squeezing with preflop, and a higher chance that he's betting the flop without improving. Against JJ+ the c/r isn't great, but it's very good against 88-TT and AK, AQ--you probably fold them, and if not you have tons of outs. And the cr ai isn't a big overbet here (so less likely to be read as a draw); it's roughly a PSR.

My 2 cents.

[gumpzilla]

I think the entire line is fine. The PF play is perhaps a bit dodgy but not too bad. And I think the flop line is fine, too. Shoving here as a bluff doesn't seem likely to work often enough and I don't think you're going to have enough outs to make it worthwhile. Your direct odds to call one card aren't phenomenal, but they aren't terrible, and you probably have pretty decent implied odds, too. Plus, as you point out, he frequently won't second barrel you, and in that spot calling here works out very nicely because you get to see two cards.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with crai is that my hand should be pretty transparent to him. Because of my flat call of the $0.85 raise pre-flop I shouldn't have AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. After I call the 3bet even 44 is unlikely for me.

[/ QUOTE ]


so? JJ+ isn't folding anyway and even if he feels you have a flush draw he isn't calling with AK/AQ

[Daniel LeClaire]

I don't like calling the preflop reraise OOP with this hand. I doubt villain is making a squeeze play.

However, once you call and see this flop you need to apply pressure. If not on this flop then, why call with this hand at all? I would lead with the intention of 3 betting all-in or check-raise with the intention of calling a push or shoving any turn. You likely have 12 outs, possibly more + there is some dead money in the pot.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
so? JJ+ isn't folding anyway and even if he feels you have a flush draw he isn't calling with AK/AQ

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you are right. I always assumed I was behind his range but I see that it is only very slightly. With the pot as big as it is crai might be +EV.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>42,570 games 0.005 secs 8,514,000 games/sec

Board: 7d 4c 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.783% 46.76% 02.02% 19905 862.00 { AcJc }
Hand 1: 51.217% 49.19% 02.02% 20941 862.00 { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AKo }
</pre><hr />

[Thremp]

Never call that flop. If you call preflop, you are felting that flop.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so? JJ+ isn't folding anyway and even if he feels you have a flush draw he isn't calling with AK/AQ

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you are right. I always assumed I was behind his range but I see that it is only very slightly. With the pot as big as it is crai might be +EV.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>42,570 games 0.005 secs 8,514,000 games/sec

Board: 7d 4c 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.783% 46.76% 02.02% 19905 862.00 { AcJc }
Hand 1: 51.217% 49.19% 02.02% 20941 862.00 { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AKo }
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]


he's folding all non-pair hands. This is definitely +EV

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so? JJ+ isn't folding anyway and even if he feels you have a flush draw he isn't calling with AK/AQ

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you are right. I always assumed I was behind his range but I see that it is only very slightly. With the pot as big as it is crai might be +EV.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>42,570 games 0.005 secs 8,514,000 games/sec

Board: 7d 4c 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.783% 46.76% 02.02% 19905 862.00 { AcJc }
Hand 1: 51.217% 49.19% 02.02% 20941 862.00 { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AKo }
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]

When you do these things, keep in minf, that some of the holding might need to be discounted ..... like I would say that KQs is a possibility, but since it is a treebet pf, I would think that it is also less likely and so remove a couple of the KQ combinations.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
When you do these things, keep in minf, that some of the holding might need to be discounted ..... like I would say that KQs is a possibility, but since it is a treebet pf, I would think that it is also less likely and so remove a couple of the KQ combinations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I included them on purpose:

Given my 3bet frequency on the table when I just call pre-flop before he 3bets he can pretty much eliminate AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ from my range. This means he is not dominated with KQ and might well 3bet/squeeze with it.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you do these things, keep in minf, that some of the holding might need to be discounted ..... like I would say that KQs is a possibility, but since it is a treebet pf, I would think that it is also less likely and so remove a couple of the KQ combinations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I included them on purpose:

Given my 3bet frequency on the table when I just call pre-flop before he 3bets he can pretty much eliminate AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ from my range. This means he is not dominated with KQ and might well 3bet/squeeze with it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, but he can not eliminate them from UTG's opening range .. you are the cold caller, not the opener

Unless UTG is a loose donk, then I can't imagine trying a squeeze play with KQ